Podcast Episode 11: Extreme Ownership: Roger’s Insights on How Accountability Can Transform Your Career

Leo: Rog, welcome to the iGaming Leader. Super excited to have you here. Welcome to the show.

Roger: Thank you very much for the invite and, really happy not to be here with you.

Leo: [00:02:00] Hey, I wanted to dive straight in. You, your growth in your career has been phenomenal. You became a VP at a very young age at ID now, 20 years, 29 years old. I think it takes us back to that specific moment. What was going through your mind when you got that news and when you first were made into what got that VP position and how did that go?

Roger: I would take it a little bit further again, because, sometimes we, where we are in life and we are super busy and we do things, it's like a reflex, right. 

And, I think the, the kind of moment where I realized where I was going with my career was when, we were doing some market research, in the U S and, we were in New York, there was a conference on, the SPC Americas and, we decided to go and see, what's possible in the market, what can we do, etcetera, etcetera. 

[00:03:00] And, at the same time, there were also obvious conversations about where. I was going as a, as a person at ID now or while my career was going and,  were having,  like a final chat during my time when I was in New York and I was sat in this, in this coffee shop, which was, one of,  one of the highest coffee shops you can have in, in New York.

And, I was sat in a, silent corner and, I was actually looking out at the empire state building and

I was talking about becoming, back then, director of sales. And obviously whilst you talk about it, it's like, yeah, I want to become this, I want to become that. But after the call, when I was just, sitting there and obviously with my new salary and new responsibilities. I was just like, I'm sat in New York. I'm looking at the Empire State Building.

I've just become a director and I was like, wow, and it always takes me back. And I always say this, when, when I was younger, like there were times in our family where we pretty much didn't have anything. Right. I mean, we ate rice and butter sometimes for lunch, or like, bread or, whatever that was, right.

[00:04:00] Just to, just to fill you up. And, to kind of go from that to this is, sometimes like just take it for granted, as, as we all do, I think, certain things we take for granted, but like that moment was like, wow, this is really big and, that was the first time when I kind of like, consciously realized like I was proud of myself of what I achieved, and it's a feeling that is hard to describe.

I think it's, it's, you just have to experience it as like a quiet, little minute that you have to yourself, but then I was, I had to jump in the customer call after so it's like, you get to enjoy it and you're back to normality. And yeah, like you said, I think, when, when.

I became VP and I will forever be grateful to my old boss, back then, Oliver Obitaya, who, supported me, who, took me on his wing, show me different ways of, thinking about business and really opened, a lot of things for me, lot of ways of thinking, a lot of ways to just digest information and not to snappily react and, react out the blue, which I think, will always be my weakness, because sometimes it's like, the emotions take over and your eagerness to do things.

[00:05:00] And I need to react right now, but sometimes just to, sit back, think about it, have a night's sleep over it. And yeah, obviously when I signed a new contract and everything. It's just,, is very American, right?

I mean, as Europeans, I mean, the job title has only been there for a few years, I think, but it's like, you didn't kind of feel a different way of responsibility if  what I'm saying, like, even though I don't own the company or I'm not on the, on the board or anything, but you start feeling it. 

Like a different responsibility, like I have to do this in order to achieve this and then you start seeing the bigger picture and I don't know, you just understand more things automatically, I whole journey that I've been on and I'm still on, you kind of start to realize a few things, it takes a lot of you. I would also say, mentally, of course, but I think also physically because if you're traveling, you're in distress, you I have to be there. You have to be here. I'm running late with this, so I have to deliver this by then.

[00:06:00] And, life in sales is not easy. I mean, your people always seem like, Oh, yeah, salespeople do this, blah, blah, blah. But, you've seen it in the way and you've interacted with people, of course, especially in a new venture. Now it's very stressful.

It takes a lot out of you. And, if you don't take care of yourself, it then really starts, you really then get into some sort of vicious circle. Because if you start putting on weight, then, subconsciously like, I don't feel well in myself.

I want to do this. Then you see pictures of yourself, you're like, wow, Jesus. I didn't realize I looked like the Michelin man. And stuff like that. And,  stop it. And just have a minute and okay, how am I going to do this, and then I think, whilst in work, you always have goals, you are setting yourself goals, you want to go here, you want to go there, but then you really forget on the personal side that you should be doing that as well.

But, it's so easy, right? You just get home as I am. Oh, the takeaway, it's like, yeah, I'll start tomorrow, like today's

[00:07:00] the last day, then you maybe do one or two days, then something happens. And then your body and your brain is in the state Oh, yeah, I need something sugary or I need this or I need that in order to cope with it. It's hard, again, when I started it, which was, at the end of July last year, and I really did like very, very strict, three months on like 1000 calories a day, which the first two weeks it was, headaches.

Your body's on strike. All your brain is sending signals, I want this on this, but you're fighting it. It was hell, but then after 10 or 14 days, you're like, yeah, this is actually fine, I feel well myself and I started being active again, going to the gym, going for walks, and, walks do wonders, right? literally, when you're just out by yourself, you put your air pods in and you just start walking and I always say to everyone, this is the best medicine for anything in life, really, just have some fresh air. 

Leo: [00:08:00] Yeah. Well done, Roger. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the progress in your career and specifically what you said there earlier about, you've come from a time and family where it's not always been easy.

You've had times where you've had it really tough and, how's that shaped you as a professional and how's that helped you, maybe make the progress in your career that you have to date?

Roger: I think, and you always see this with, see this with, sports people. I would say the most successful, an example, MMA fighters, right? They come. From nothing, and I think it shapes you in a way where you take Nothing for granted in terms of now having whatever I wanted,  food wise on the table I now can do activities.

I didn't used to do I can now,  my kids don't have to experience any of that because they get Well, I'm not whatever they want for Christmas, what I'm trying to say in a way like, they don't have to struggle, but I think once you've been in that struggle and you've kind of experienced it, it really gives you another gear, and this is, I think, the advantage that I have over many, many people, in whatever function that is that I want to do 110 percent because I want to make sure that I don't have to struggle.

[00:09:00] And then also at the same time, your ego is there. So, you just want to be better. And I think Americans have a great way of describing it. Like you got a dog in you, on the psychology side, if that's the best thing to to have always flashbacks to like that struggle, but it hasn't been bad to me.

Let's put it that way, when you've been in that struggle and people can fall into it at any point in life, right? I mean, they might have a fantastic life, but then, things can just go down or whatever. And it's just really about how you pick yourself up and what you want to do with yourself, I had to take that decision quite early on in my life, to be better.

And I had to be better than everyone else in order to achieve certain things, so, that's why I'm so competitive when it comes to also playing monopoly with the family or, playing football with my kids or whatever, ? So, it's finding out early. 

[00:10:00] That there is winning and losing. And I think in our society now, this is getting lost a little bit, and, there's many opinions about it, but my opinion is if you don't know what winning and losing is, and you don't experience it, you will always be expecting things in life and no, one's going to put, You're a nice life on a silver platter, have the right people around you, to get to know people that will actually be. 

Get you to the next step that you can learn from, and also that you can kind of aspire to be like them. Many people don't have that experience, unfortunately, stagnate in a certain way or go backwards in a sense. So, coming back to answer your question.

I think it's probably been highly positive, throughout my career and throughout my life as well. That I experienced exactly that.

Leo: Yeah. It becomes your fuel. Right. And I think many people, when you allow it to become your fuel, it also becomes your greatest driver and your competitive advantage, like you said. but making that progress so quickly early on, which must've also given you perhaps some doubts or perhaps that, , that imposter syndrome that we often talk about, that feeling of having to prove yourself harder than everybody else.

Like, has that been true for you? And if so, how did that show up for you?

Roger: [00:11:00] I would say so. Yes, because, you just like, Oh, yeah, I got this now. But, I don't want to rest with this, and I want to have more. I want to be better than this. And, just trying to prove yourself wrong. I think it's true for everyone.

Like I was just describing that moment, in New York, it's not something that we do enough probably in order to realize where we are. Last week I had sort of. Like pretty similar conversation with my friends was like, I used to do this and I used to be that and look at my kids now look at where my life is, and it's it's like, kind of for one or two minutes and then you like let's talk about football.

Let's talk about the NFL again, but I think again, that's a, probably a man thing as well, like a male thing where we feel that responsibility of having to be better. I mean, not saying that females don't do it, but I think, the way we as men talk about feelings and how we feel in ourselves. We probably have that conversation with us whilst we're lying in bed and trying to fall asleep, Oh, I should have done this. I should have done that. I need to be better than this. I need to be better than that. 

[00:12:00] Sometimes I struggle to understand my feelings in a way because, maybe some personal trauma , when I was little or whatever. And, there's certain things you're just trying to block out because you don't want to deal with it. But at the same time, and I've learned this through, , talking to, mental health coaches , in order to. 

To overcome things you have to face those things because otherwise it will always come back and bite you in the backside, and i'm not saying i'm perfect like that there's still certain things. I don't want to kind of face and whatever but it's as long as people are aware or as long as you are aware that this is something you have to do at some point you will do it and whether that's whilst you're on a holiday or whilst you're on a plane or wherever it is in life I think  as long as you start doing these things it will come back into your conscience and you will try and fight it or you will make out with it and be in peace with it, and just accept, okay, this is, this is what it is.

Leo: [00:13:00] Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Rog. It's difficult. I think one of the big things that I see with most high achievers, and I'm sure it's gonna be the same with you, is that we don't take a lot of time to celebrate our successes, right? We kind of shrug it off and go, All right, on to the next one.

We very often are the most critical person inside of our own head, right? Like pushing ourselves harder and harder. Almost holding, holding yourself up to an impossible standard. 

I'm sure that some of that is the same for you, but what have you changed over time from kind of those things that you were, you were saying to, to deal with those, perhaps those kinds of things a little bit more effectively or in a way that is more supportive to, to where you are today?

Roger: I think going back to,  celebrate and I think. What, what, what I do now is that I strongly encourage, people that work with me or work for me that they need to celebrate, and I'm, not shy to, to, , , investor, a couple of hundred, , pounds to, to buy something nice for the people or to like, let's go out, let's

[00:14:00] celebrate, I mean, some of the conferences are always a good thing to do because then you can go to a restaurant or whatever. And I think as people, we have to start being nicer to each other again. This is something that over the years, because everyone kind of focuses on themselves we need to make sure that we are alright, but let me tell you, and this is the thing for me, success as a team is 10 times more or worth 10 times more.

Then being successful individually, it just gives me this, I don't know what it is. Like a fulfilling thing. Like, oh, we're successful together, like this guy successful, he's successful, she's successful, because early on, like in my years, I didn't have that person that would make me do this or, celebrate this.

And all you need is this one moment of appreciation where someone tells you, Hey, mate,, here's a little bit of a thank you, and, these things, they're not normal anymore. Right. It's seen as some special thing, which, to me, this is, this is normality.

[00:15:00] I want to give back to the people. I want to make them feel special, it's not just about me. I mean, I talk a lot, publicly and people see me the whole time. But, and enough today, it's the people that I work with that make it happen.

I'm now kind of in this cheerleader role where I would get sent to conferences and do those panels, et cetera. And, people didn't hear me talking and talking, but enough today, it's, people like, Max Ronaldo, Mike and Bruce that I work with, and Guillaume that really make it work, I just want to be, I just want to appreciate it first of all, and want to hopefully show them something that they can use later when they become people managers, because all of them have the skills and, all of them are really good at their jobs.

When you are showing them, it's like, yes, you did a great job, let's appreciate you. It's something that is hugely important, especially to morale because loyalty is not won by paying someone the most money, loyalty is having a team.

[00:16:00] Team spirit, teamwork, people feeling as if they are a tight knit group, and that's how you take on the world. And you don't take on the world by paying everyone the highest wage, the people that you really want will never leave the company because they're so attached to the team.

And I always say, companies don't buy from companies. It's people buying from people. So it's hugely important that everyone is on board and appreciates each other as well, this is super important. And like you said, it gets forgotten so, so much, and it's a shame 

Leo: I love it. And actually to take that even a step further, Rog, people, people don't work for businesses. They work for people, right? So it's the 

Roger: 100

Leo: idea.

Roger: 100%, 100%. Yes. 

Leo: So you've lost an insane amount of weight, mate. It's like so, so impressive. Like I've seen you change and it's, it's been really inspirational. But talk me through, what was the pivotal moment for you that you thought, I've, I've just got to do something about this now. What was the one moment where you thought this like enough is enough? 

Roger: [00:18:00] What I don't think there's been like one big moment, but I think it was just things leading up to it kind of in a way. So at the start of the year, we had ICE and obviously, when you're in the Excel London, you kind of do like 20, 000 steps easily every day because you walk in, and want to intend from s one to essay, then all that, evening activity. to realize Jesus, like whilst I was walking, like my back started getting sweaty and like wet,

We went to the SBC Rio in Brazil. And that was the first time I was ever in Brazil. And what I saw there is no one here is really overweight, everyone looks after themselves, and I felt like kind of outside of the norm kind of thing, then we went on holiday in Mallorca with the kids. 

It's just when it's sunny and then, you get all hot and flustered and, you can't really. Walk the steps that you used to do, or you can't run after them, the way you used to, or you just don't feel comfortable doing it because I've got a certain shirt on or whatever, and this is me just openly speaking about, I mean, it, stuff like that.

This is really what's going on in my head here. And, and, sometimes it was very hard to talk about it, but when you actually talk about it, it actually helps you to realize these things. And then kind of I was like, July and, we don't have many hot days in the uk, so it's, you 

Roger: [00:19:00] Very sparse, right? and, and, and, and it was like a really hot day? and I was like, literally sat like trying to work, but feeling uncomfortable and it's like, and then on like one day, and I'm, opening a, a packet of crisps or chips if you're American, sorry. And I'm, and I'm about to go in and I, and I take the first one out and I like , kind of bite into it, but like, as I'm eating them, I was like, what am I doing? I'm not even hungry. I just open them because I don't know if it's, if it's that thing of not having enough food back in the day so I don't know if there's a connection between, I mean, surely there must be, but, and I was like, do  what, nah. I will start right now and I just literally didn't say I will start tomorrow as I put it away. I will start right now and then I kind of said to myself, look, in order to lose weight, there needs to be a calorie deficit, right. So as I, okay, so I need 2, 500, 3000 calories a day. I was like, all right, I'll try and do 1000.

[00:20:00] It's a nice number, then I don't need to calculate too much and, like next day, I get up, and I was intermittent, fasting as well. So I wasn't eating until like 1 or 2 PM because I think every time I eat breakfast, it makes me eat more actually throughout the day. 

So I started doing that honestly, the first three or four days, man, it was like actual hell. Honestly, it was like literally fighting with myself fighting urges and I could just feel my brain is kind of depleted of sugar or depleted or MSG or whatever, whatever there is, I was getting headaches. I was getting mood swings, I was like. 

Oh my God, is this the right thing to do? I was like, no, no, I'll stick this out yeah. so like after 10 days, 11, 12 or whatever it was, I was like, Oh, I feel okay now, and I think another thing that was, I started drinking a lot more water instead of Coke when, I had the feeling when I drink more, I actually feel less hungry, and I don't know if there is a scientific thing behind it, but that's at least how I felt and, 

like two weeks into it, three weeks into it, four weeks into it. After four weeks, I actually weighed myself the first time I was like, Oh, my God. I lost 10 kilos. What is going on here? But then obviously the next two weeks I put on a little bit.

[00:21:00] So it wasn't going down as fast because I started going to the gym a lot more. So obviously you build muscles. We all know muscles and fat are different, obviously muscles way more. So it was going down, a lot slower, but , that was when I started to see the changes, , that was like after two months or after nearly two months, I was like putting on jeans or chinos, whatever it was I was like Jesus Christ man.

I was going there, because like when I'm at home I usually just wear shorts and a T-shirt or whatever, and it's like Oh my god, and then  I started trying on my shirts that I would usually wear to the events and stuff like that.

I was like, Oh my God, they're actually all too big, and not even like a little bit too big. I was looking like I had a parachute on me basically, , and, I said, Look, I'll do another four weeks. Then I'm going to the U.

1. For work. And whilst I'm the U. S. I don't want to have any constraints on food because everybody loves a nice burger or whatever, or like some mozzarella sticks and the Americans know how to do it, , they realize.

[00:22:00] So do  what? And then,  like before this trip, I had to go out and buy pretty much my whole wardrobe again because everything was, I mean, seriously, man, I was waist size,  in UK 44, which is, I mean, is huge, right?

I mean, if you see the difference between the jeans that I've got 36 on now, the difference is so big and so, I went to Miami and there was Sigma Malta. So that was another one, but I kind of didn't have to watch myself really,

because I wasn't, I was eating maybe naughty things, as you would say, and like, not super healthy, but I wasn't eating all the time, so I wasn't having crisps and then eating crisps, eating or whatever.

[00:23:00] So I was having like two meals a day. Maybe a little bit too much or definitely not 1000 calories , and that's how the journey was. And then obviously during Christmas I put a little bit on, but I wasn't stressing myself because I said to myself, look, I'll take a little bit of time off and now since the 1st of January, we're back on the train, this time I'm also doing a little bit different.

So now in January doing a carnivore diet. So I'm eating meat products. So let's see how that goes. So for the first six days, absolutely fine. I feel good within myself. And, that's what really counts.

And like now I want to get down to 95 and then I want to stay around 95-100, like somewhere in between there, because I think that's, that's kind of also the weight that I would be comfortable with when, I'm older, not so mobile, that I can, still swing around. Yeah.

Leo: Well done at 21 kilos, right?

Roger: Yeah, 21 then obviously things were like four, four and a half during Christmas and stuff like that. So, which again, which is fine because honestly, like I was probably eaten, around about, , two kilos of turkey and potatoes every day, bu

Leo: [00:24:00] Hey, beyond the scale, beyond the scale, what are the differences that you notice?  so in work, but also with the kids?

Roger: Do  what I think with work? The biggest difference is not having this kind of 3 p. m. crash where you just kind of feel tired and your focus drops and stuff like that. So I think I can hold my focus a lot longer. So that's for sure I don't have any issues with that whatsoever And this goes, this is a little bit more on the personal life side and a little bit more family, you feel a lot more confident within you, so you don't, you don't look left and right.

And you can just focus on that one thing, which is obviously like your family and kids and whatnot. Right. It's a lot more enjoyable in a way, because I can just chase after them. I can bend down. I can pick them up and run through them, thanks to all the squats that I was doing and, whatnot.

[00:25:00] But, When you feel Well within yourself and you fit and you feel like okay, I'm in a good place now, And this is like probably 80 percent of where you want to be in life  feel like you've done something and you are doing something to help it and, the mood swings are a lot less focus levels with the family and whatnot is, totally different.

And I mean, I couldn't recommend it more to people, and unfortunately in our industry, or unfortunately a lot in the UK, or Western Europe, there's a lot of people that have become overweight, all the time, because again, it's just, bad habits, , like it says behind, , habit rewire, and that's what people really need to start doing and not just doing whatever's the simplest.

But I think again, it's a little bit of reflection of society. What I was saying before, we want everything the easy way, everything has to come to you, but, sometimes you've got to do the dirty work to get to where you want, 

Leo: Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. And  what I think is beautiful about it, Roger, is that, we often, like you said, we often want the fast route, right? We want the pill to get there and the tick box to do it. But it's actually in the journey, 

I think, where all of the, transformation happens, it's realizing when you suddenly feel comfortable taking your shirt off, when you suddenly have the energy again to run after your kids, when you suddenly don't worry about dying of a heart attack at 50, and those are not tick box moments, they happen along the journey, they don't happen overnight.

So what are some of those realisations that you've had along that journey, if any?

Roger: Actually, before I answer this, what, What were yours on your journey?

Leo: Well, the ones I just described, like really about crashing after work feeling completely. So, that's what happened to me all the time, right? I would feel brain fried after work. I would down a bottle of wine to unwind. I would not have the energy to play with my kids. I would just lie on the sofa.

[00:27:00] I would go out all the time because again, I felt I didn't have a life outside of work. and it was that, feeling comfortable enough to take my shirt off on the beach. being able to run after my kids, being able to just play with them again. Not having those energy crashes at work, the mood swings.

I would get angry all the time at work. Yeah, kind of the things that you described. 

Roger: no, I think,  the realization that I had was when I was,  in Miami and stuff like that, and I didn't have a can of world if I had a shirt on or not , and it was like, yeah, like whatever. Then, like I said, the biggest realization was when I, when I tried on all my shirts and stuff like that, I was just thinking to myself, wow, man, that's, that's crazy. Like I was so big, holy moly, , I think that was really when I can visualize things what I kind of achieved, I think when it comes to that, it's a fulfilling moment. Okay, I'm on the right track here, I'm on the right track. 

Leo: [00:28:00] Roger, I wanted to, I know you mentioned, that mistakes are like, you feel that that's the only way to really get better. Right. And to learn. I completely agree with you. However, we all know in iGaming, that's not necessarily a shared mindset everywhere. So can you tell me a little bit more about it?

Perhaps even a significant mistake that you've made that shaped you into a better leader today, or how you perhaps use that approach in your day to day leadership.

Roger: mistakes are on a scale, I think, right? So everything should be on.

Leo: Don't lose your license, 

Roger: Yeah, Yeah, , so I think there are mistakes and there are like grave mistakes, right?

So I'm not talking about those grave mistakes. I'm talking about all this stuff, when you're kind of an example, when you believe that person's word and then, doesn't come off or you just not had a second look and, believed it to be right because, you trust in certain processes or people or whatever, and it's just those, those kind of moments, right

[00:29:00] I think you did something in a project and it was actually the wrong decision, but it's still reversible and it's fine. Right. But again, how do I know that this is, The right thing to do, or how do I know that this is, this is not the right thing to do.

I think mistakes are there to be learned from, but what I also say is don't do the same mistake twice,

Because that's really going to cost you then, I think making mistakes should be natural for everybody, and there's something to learn from, but you have to be, accountable with yourself, first of all, and you have to come to the realization that, you have done a mistake and don't to try and blame someone else for it, because trust me, and I have, luckily, I have never done this, but, if you blame someone else behind their backs, or whatever that person will defend themselves, and they will have it written, they will have it somewhere, somewhere will be there. 

And it will come back to bite you ten times more than whatever. So it's just the realization, okay, I have made a mistake. It was wrong to do this but I think in business, if you come to someone and say, Hey, look, I have made this mistake, I should have done this, but I've done this right.

[00:30:00] If you go to your line manager, if you go to whatever department this concerns, we all make mistakes. . There's not a single person in any company that has not made a mistake, from the CEO down to the maintenance person in the office. Honestly, we've all made mistakes, which is fine, do not do it twice and learn from it, realize, and just, stand up for it. And , people will automatically respect you. 

When you have that realization and when you tell them about it, rather than trying to hide it because that's something that I hate, like nothing more , when people start making up stories or whatever and want to hide their mistakes. Because again, we sometimes forget to just get on with things and solve things, and just keep going on about the problem.

You just circle the problem and you're like, Oh, this is so bad. This is yeah. Yeah. It's so bad. It's so bad. But what are you going to do to make it better? What does it need to make it better? 

[00:31:00] I think mistakes are there to make you better as a person, and if you don't make mistakes, you definitely are. Doing something wrong. So, , no, 

Leo: you'd be in the, the thing is you'd be a mediocre, right? Like that you just live in the middle and you, yeah, like you'd be mediocre. So, but what I hear back from you again and again, through this entire conversation, right, is how much value you place on accountability and taking ownership for your own actions.

So, tell me a little bit more about that, Roger, like how, why is that so, why has that been so important for you, probably throughout your career?

Roger: We all have some sort of moments, back when we were like 16, 17, 18 or whatever, when it just clicks and you're like, okay, now I need to focus on doing something. In my life, there might be a next click even later, when it comes to other life changing decisions like having kids or buying a house or whatever.

[00:32:00] Right. But once it clicked for me, I was like, okay, what do successful people do, And I was looking at different people and, and, one that really stood out for me. was Steve jobs because he said openly in one of the presentations, that we, as a company and I, as a person, because I am responsible for this company have done. Wrong things, but here's what we're gonna do to solve them, and I was like my god like why doesn't everybody else do that, ,  people that are successful, the most successful politicians even, saying, I've made a mistake here and this is what we're gonna do to make it better.

I don't want to hear all these excuses and whatever it is, right? And it goes through life. Whether you're a politician, whether you are an owner of a company, whether you have a family, whether you have a wife, husband, whether you work for this company, whether you work for that company, whether you were an artist, whether you were a sports person, right? If you lie to yourself. 

That means if you lie to someone else you will never get to the point where you dream to be or where you want to be or what your potential is, and I think if you're not accountable for your own actions, then it's just, you're not gonna go anywhere.

[00:33:00] You're going to stay in this little dream world of yours that you have and, I just don't have the respect for those people, I think the world would be in a lot better place if we would stop doing these things.

And again, I'm not asking everyone to be perfect, because we're not perfect, but at least try to do it, I still do some of these things, right? But I have to realise and I reflect on myself and think,  what, that wasn't, that wasn't that cool.

Let me go back to this person and say, sorry, I apologize for what I did. I can't reverse it. The words that I said were, that's what I felt in a moment. What can we do to make it better? , and that's all you need to do.

Leo: I love it. It's so, it's so important. Extreme ownership is,  I think, also the only way to go because then you, then there's no one else to blame, right? There's just you. It's just you and you can take action for the things that you can control. And that's it. And,  you take ownership.

Roger: [00:34:00] and, and the best people around you. And this is why, I, I know some people that, Say that they have like 40 or 50 friends, and nurture those relationships But let me tell you what out of those 40 or 50 people There's probably only two or three that will actually tell you no what you are doing here is wrong Like, , you need to need to look back and and these are the people you need to focus on , not not the person that tells you all , Roger what you did here so good, And then, you do something and they say,

That was so good, Roger, you are the best person in the world and stuff like that. There's a big, big difference between friends and acquaintances, right?

There's a huge difference, and it'll be the same for you. Free work in any industry is yeah, you get to know so many people and a lot of them are really cool people. But work is work and personal is personal, the issue is once you start crossing this barrier, it's then very hard to have that realization.

So, what I try to do is that, okay, who's actually the person that's gonna tell me off for being an idiot, so that's gonna be like me. 

[00:35:00]My two or three really, really good friends that I had all my life, and of course you can have new friends , and I got to know some, fantastic people since I moved from Germany here that also supported me and I've been there for me, one of the examples is one of my colleagues now, James that I work with, when I moved to another company, he was there to mentor me.

He was helping me with the language as well, because, let me tell you, as a German, I thought my English was brilliant, and I could understand a lot. And, I was really into hip hop rap and whatnot. Right. And I was watching TV shows. 

But like, when you come to Manchester, man, there is no, honestly, there are eight different accents in Manchester, right? he helped me quite a lot with that and he translated a lot of, Jokes for me, which , it might seem stupid, but There's not many people that will do that for you and still support you for your way So, it's sometimes obviously because we work together and forget to do that kind of  the friendship side of things Things, when we do, and when we talk with each other, it's, but when you come back to each other, you're like, yes, this and this and this, and you have a great connection.

[00:36:00] And also with people like Steven and Chris those people are like really, friends that I care a lot about their opinion. I genuinely, if they tell me something like Roger, maybe. Stopped doing this or this was a little bit over the top or whatever. I was like, okay, I I don't just shrug it off I go back and think Oh, yeah, you were right and , we all need that.

We all need that sort of checking and the people to tell us off. 

Leo: Hey, last question, Roger. You've made some really fast progress in your career. Anybody kind of looking, maybe feeling that they're,  they're late twenties, early thirties,  also maybe wanting to move in directorship, VP type of positions.

Perhaps they feel that they're a little bit out, have a little bit of a ceiling somehow. What's your best advice for someone that wants to progress in their career and move forward? 

Roger: [00:37:00] I think. Again, like I said, as long as you are self aware and you set yourself goals, you want to go to these things? But it's not as easy sometimes, you have to be also at the right place at the right time, because, certain politics and whatever, and certain companies, I mean, how it works, sometimes you just can't get past that stage because those people have been around for 20 years or, they are friends with. 

And, it is very hard, you have to assess the situation as it is, and just be as brutal as you want to be with yourself, with the company, with your situation, with your career, because that's the only way how you're going to move forward, there is a difference between a company, you not, reaching that step because of certain political aspects. But there might also be certain aspects you have to show people growth, and sometimes you also have to shout about it, 

and I would just encourage anyone really, whether you male, female, whatever you class yourself as and just, make sure that it is acknowledged, don't do it silently. Every step of the way because people will just take it for granted, and again, going back to this conversation about celebration and whatever.

[00:38:00] So like, make sure that people acknowledge it. But also at the same time, you have to have a manager that is supporting you for you to grow, right? Because you have to have that person. And if none of these things are existent, then it's probably time for a change unless you want to, look, there's some people that feel very comfortable working nine to five and that's all they want to do, right?

I always say to people, look, that's absolutely fine, because there's only 0.1 percent of people that have  the qualities to be the leaders and to be persistent and to also have the nerves and to sacrifice family time and whatnot.

I mean, it is. It is what it is. Don't be drawn into these conversations where or like things that you see on social media is like, Yeah, you were born to be great. And you have to do this. And you have to do that, no, do what you are comfortable with, but at the same time, where do you want to go, and it's a, it's a very tough conversation.

[00:39:00] I'm sure, Leo with your company, I'm, you also help a lot of people to realize that and come to that realization, what am I comfortable with, what do I really want to do, I can't recommend it enough to, go and speak to you and just, a good shot and  with someone who's been there, done that and done it all the time and Has that kind of reborn himself, It's like a rebirth of a person, to go into direction for people It's just like, be honest with yourself, you don't have to be The best person in the world, you don't have to do that.

You can also be comfortable with living as you are. And if you're happy, then, do  what, then you are happy. So what else do you want? 

But for those people that really, really want to, take it as far as you have to assess the situation, Work damn hard for it, of course.

But also do not underestimate the lucky factor here. There is luck in there and, being with people that will be able to, give you some new things in your life that are able to teach you something or that are able to, pick you up , be around positive people.

That's what I'm trying to say. Don't, cut all the negativity out.

Leo: [00:40:00] It kind of comes back to the same thing. The journey is the goal, right? Not the, not the end result. And I think very often we forget that the journey is actually where all of the happiness happens. Not because when you look at the end goal for happiness to happen, you will never find it.

Roger: Oh, yeah, 100%. And you will remember the taxi ride you had at 1am, you will remember how you spilled the coffee over your shirt before a big meeting. You will remember how you made a mistake here.

And you will remember what you did at that point in time. But what you will not remember is, is signing a new employment contract.

That's what I can tell you for sure. So like you say, happiness comes in the process and you, but you just have to choose a journey to be in that process. , that's exactly it.

Leo: Roger, thank you very much , for being the iGaming leader. I loved talking to you. Thank you very much.

Roger: [00:41:00] Yeah. Thanks a lot. And , thanks for letting me talk for that long.