Podcast Episode 4: Leading Through Change in iGaming | Rob Duthie, Entain MD

  📍 📍 Instead of running away from challenges every day, that I actually run towards them because within that challenge is actually very, very likely I'm going to find a lot of engagement and happiness and fulfillment.

if you feeling that the season is finished, then get up and move. Yeah. Don't stay in that and stagnate because there's so much opportunity out there

In terms of language, relentless change, continuous change, is something that you become used to when you're working in this industry. Arguably, if you step out of the industry, it's the very thing you end up missing

When you start to break it down, you begin to realize how did I. How did I ever get anything done without really planning the day ahead of me? No wonder why, no wonder why you get home and you're tired

  📍 Welcome to the I gaming leader the podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most well-respected leaders. In the industry. I'm your host, Leo Jenkins.

And today I'm joined by Rob Duthie. A true industry veteran. been in the industry For over 20 years, starting out at Victor Chandler, nowadays BV group. Working out Stan James nowadays, kindred and ending up as the managing director at Entain. He will share the lessons that he's learned throughout that 20 year career, the challenges that he's faced, and also leadership lessons that will help you and I uncover what is required to sustain high performance in this high pressure, fast paced industry. So with that said, let's dive 📍 in.

  📍 Hey Rob, welcome to the iGaming Leader podcast. Really great to have you here. I wanted to start with kind of kicking off. You've been in the industry for 20 years, I believe, when I looked at your LinkedIn. Very long term and passionate person in the industry. You know, starting back in 2003, I'm curious to hear what initially drew you into the industry. And, and how's your perspective perhaps changed as you, as you've gone through those two decades in gaming?

Yeah. Look, it's been a fascinating journey for me. I had no intention of moving into gaming at all. In fact, moving down to southern Spain was a desire, to get away from UK weather. It was just an opportunity where I was very fortunate to go and take on a maternity cover role with, Victor Chandler, knew nothing about the industry at all and ended up looking after payrolls for the UK and Gibraltar.

So. You know, it's, there was no intention of joining the industry, but, 20 years has gone by and it's been a fascinating journey from, you know, back in 2000s, early 2000s, where everything was on the telephone and it was all sports betting. We had a single person in the corner looking at something called an internet casino or casino online.

Now there isn't any telephony or very little of it. And everything is pretty much digital for us. So what an exciting journey it has been over the last 20 years. Lots of variety.

Yeah, funny. I was thinking about it yesterday as well, how you used to have the mobile department, it just doesn't exist anymore. And on that same thoughts, Rob, you, you must have seen so many consolidations, not just, you know, within business that you're in now, but consolidations in general, right?

How teams merge and expand and change over time, what are some of the, some of the bigger, most impactful changes that you've witnessed or been part of?

Look, I think the journey for me has been fascinating because I've been very fortunate to move between different operators, which gives you quite a different perspective on how these businesses run. The tenure that I've had has worked for operators. I've worked in payment specific areas. Understanding the whole infrastructure around how we deal with payments from the acquirer point of view and the routing point of view for different industries, whether it's Forex or binary or gaming.  

📍 So what I find fascinating about this industry is that. There is so much variety sitting within this business. In fact, when we talk about progression, individual progression, they typically think about this industry as just taking a bet. But actually, if you dig into it, it's about marketing. It's about legal.

It's about compliance. It's about acquisition. There's so much variety within the industry. I've been very fortunate to be a part of a lot of that, which has helped me grow as a person. over the last 20 years. So, you know, that coupled with the fact that there is such a fast paced moving environment.

In terms of language, relentless change, continuous change, is something that you become used to when you're working in this industry. Arguably, if you step out of the industry, it's the very thing you end up missing.   📍 It's just the pace at which you move.

Um, there's very few other industries that match that. Um, and so that, that, that can be, um, quite a motivational piece, quite an energizing piece of this, um, of the work that I do.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think that's so true. It's such a fast paced industry and sometimes that brings big challenges with it as well, where we, we want to look at the long term, but we have to look at the short term to be able to deliver results, right? So what are some of the, you know, just kind of looking back at that 20 years then Rob, what are some, have been some of the biggest challenges that you've, you've personally faced in your professional career when it comes to this, this real fast pace that this industry is all about?

Yeah, some of the points for me is that you have to embrace the change. Okay, so you've got to, you've got to be in a position where if you feel you want to fit into a box and that's what you want to do for the rest of your days, then you're going to struggle because you will, you will come up, you know, you will come up against having to reinvent what it is that you do   📍 because in a year or two years time or five years time, it's very likely that That it will not be the same.

The operation won't be the same. The types of positions and jobs that we have won't be the same. And in fact, you know, in terms of, in terms of my own journey, there's some key, there's some key learnings around, um, We've spoken a little bit about this, Leo, just about, you know, finding happiness and engagement in the challenge, in the change of everything that we do every day.

Um, and really by embracing that, um, I actually have lots of reasons to get up in the morning. to come to work because there is so much variety and the minute you stick your hand up and the minute you say, yes, you know, I want to get involved in this is the minute you start learning and you start growing.

Um,   📍 and I don't think I'll ever stop, you know, learning or growing in this career because it's always changing for me. Yeah.

yeah, it's true. And I think that's true for most people. If you, if you kind of think back to, I mean, you've been at Victor Chanda, been at Hills, now at Entain. What were some of the most pivotal moments when it comes to maybe your, how you approach leadership in general, how you manage your teams, how you speak to your people, what have been some of the most, you know, you know, The biggest moments for you that really changed the way that you see leadership or how you lead your teams

Yeah. So because we're in this continuous change, that's at the root of everything we do are the people. And that's quite a key point because you. all of us, you know, get carried away by the target, okay, by what do we have to do around the number and how much do we have to deliver.   📍 But there's, there's a, there's a very real lesson in understanding the difference between how we perform.

So how we turn up every day and what we do versus the targets that we, you know, that we are set and we have to deliver against. And I guess, you know, we've got to ask those questions about fine, we hit target. Okay. We did very well in terms of Um, the number, but how did we perform and turn up every day to hit that target?

And we've got to make a decision as individuals to say yes, you know, in terms of our behavior, in terms of how we look after individuals and teams and people, because we all want to have that opportunity to develop. Yeah, we all want to have the opportunity to grow and to learn. Um, but how do we, you know, the key is how do we perform every day as people?

That means that we actually end up hitting the target. there might be,   📍 there might be occasions when you, when you don't hit the target, okay, but you're comfortable that in terms of behavior and how we turned up and what we did was acceptable.

yeah,

All right, versus, versus hitting the target at any cost and essentially not looking after individuals all the way that we run the business, you know, especially when you're dealing with vulnerable customers, especially dealing with, um, You know, people that are struggling in the industry, um, we, we have to take accountability for that. 📍  

So, you know, what I love about, the last two 10 years that I've had at Hills and in Tain is that at William Hill 2016, that's really when we had the start of regulation and by start of regulations, when we, we started taking it seriously and in terms of affordability. and knowing your customer and source of funds and source of wealth.

Um, that's when we started to take it seriously. And the one consistent area for all operators, especially in the UK market, um, is that that impacts value. So customer value has been hit across every operator in the UK because of regulation and how we run our business. And so at Hills, four years that I had at William Hill, that was all about the start of.

Of that piece. Okay. And where I'm super fortunate to be right now is that we are at Intane. I came and joined Intane at 2020. Again, that was the start of that journey for Intane. And you would see that reflected in the share price and the way that the business is moving around, uh, consolidating, restructuring to where we are now where we're coming out the other side at a very, very exciting time.

Thank you. Um, it's, it's   📍 in fact, we, we talk internally that around the lines that these will be the most exciting times that we will see in the next 24 months, just in terms of how we grow as a business and how we, we take share of wallet in the UK.

I love how you've turned the business around and saying you know, like the Just Just that recent financial update is insane. I've, I've, I was fortunate enough to see some of that, uh, a little bit closer by, right, working together with you guys. And

like, how has that affected the team, Rob? Like that must've after such a tough time that you've been through yourself with the team as a business, turning that around into a quarter where, you know, you, you, you perform the way that you've just, you've just done specifically in the UK, but internationally as well. How's that affected everybody? Yep,

you know, since 2020, we've had continuous decrease in value and player value. And the challenge on individuals is that when you try and hit a target that is very difficult to hit, that starts eroding away in terms of your engagement and your motivation. You'll laugh at this, but the challenge we have today is not around the success. 

📍 So we are performing. Well, and we will continue to perform well, but there is, there is a lot of fatigue. There is a lot of change fatigue, um, that everybody is carrying. And so how we, how we get people to jump over that, that divide, that fence to say, look, yes, we're doing well as a business, but actually now we need to invest heavily in our people that are, you know, that are tired, yea they're tired of having to go through the restructures and the changes over the last couple of years, along with You know, the challenges of performance. Um, it's how you change that mindset. Um, and that's, that's something that we're really focusing on now. Is that we need to have fun, yeah? People need to have fun. They come to work to have fun, yes. Um, and, and we get paid, and that's fantastic. Uh, but we really need to enjoy the journey.

So, you know, we are,  we are focusing on how do we Getting back to the basics, yeah? About how, how do you How do you deal with those brilliant basics in terms of development and progression and succession planning? Um, because people want to move on. Yeah, so that's an exciting place for us to be, because the focus now is on the people.

You know, the focus is on the performance piece, because we know that the targets are realistic, and we know that, you know, we're going to achieve the results that we need to achieve.

Yeah, I love it. I love how it's turned around. It's really amazing. I can see that makes a lot of sense as well. When you've gone through so many changes, you, that fatigue starts happening in starts, starts kind of trickling in. So, so how do

you, how do you keep people engaged? How do you like, what's your approach to making sure that your team feels engaged with, with business, with your, your strategic direction that you're setting with, um, still delivering , and making sure that they come to work and have fun, like you said.

Yeah, so, um, So So for us, it's just, it's, it's understanding very, very clearly what, you know, what those objectives are for us as a business. We call them the big rocks. Now, what are, what are the big rocks that we want to deliver against in 2025? And the story needs to be super simple. Um, you know, the last four years have been spent making things very complex.

And, and in the complexity, people lose sight. of where it is we're going and what it is we're trying to achieve.   📍 So stripping that right back to a very simple story that has very, very clear objectives. And then more importantly, what I, what I really love is how we as individuals take the skills that we have.

Okay. So instead of, instead of us going to people and saying, well, here's the objective and I need you to do this. We talk to people about, okay, what is your skill set and how do you tie into it. being accountable and responsible within the objective. And that just, that just encourages cross team work. So, you know, people are now doing what they're really passionate about doing, which is why we want to come to work, as opposed to being told, you need to be doing X, Y, and Z.

So the way that, the way that we work with our guys is, is we talk about the big rocks so that these are the big things we want to deliver for next year. And then if you, if you go a little deeper on that and peel it back, what are the, you know, what are the deliverables that we need to achieve within our verticals, within our pillars to achieve those objectives?

And then drill it down again into the individual, is what are the skill sets that you guys have? And how do those tie in? And it could be across multiple functions or multiple pillars. But let's, let's, let's focus on what you're good at as opposed to necessarily all the weak areas. Um, and, and that then gets people engaged because they have a very clear sense of where they're going.

Okay.   📍 And they have a very clear idea of what got to do to get there. Um, that's, that's when you start, that's when the magic starts happening. Uh, and people feel like, um, they want to be here. Because they're adding value. Yeah, that's a very exciting place to be.

Yeah. Love that, Rob. Um, I'd like to ask a little bit about your, like, your personal experience with people that you've looked up to, leaders that you've looked up to. I've also worked for Victor, right? And And I understand, like, it's very different than I'd imagine your current, you know, situation at work where it's,

, it's obviously a larger organization. Um, but what are. What are maybe some of the people that you've really looked up to, leaders that you've looked up to throughout that 20 year career of yours that, you know, the skills, the behaviors, the habits that you feel, um, were really kind of transformational for you when you looked at them and you thought those are things that I want to want to have on when I'm progressing as I'm progressing through my career?

Yeah. So, so key points for me, uh, in terms of leadership is, is you don't always have to have the answer. So when people are coming to, to talk to you about their journey, it's not about, it's not about saying this is what you need to go away and do. What I really respect with, with leaders is, is having the insight to, to pick away and help.

You know, help you understand what the solution is as a person, and the ability really to say something very simple, that actually gets you thinking about a problem statement in a different way. And so   📍 I've been fortunate to run across a couple of guys like that, where I might be overthinking something, um, and they would just pull me back in line to say, well, just if we think about it a little differently.

What is the outcome going to be for you? Um, and exploring that. It's a little bit like, it's a little bit like getting into coaching. Um, and we know that you turn up to a coaching session expecting, you know, the person on the other side of the table or the phone call to have all the answers. And actually that's not their job.

Their job is there to sit with you and help you understand what is the, what is the right answer for you. And so it's the questioning techniques. Um, and allowing you to explore those areas that, um, you wouldn't necessarily do on your own. That, that for me is, is quite key. Um, but I think in terms, in terms of leadership as well, it's, you know, the most engaging leaders that I've worked with are people that bring everybody along the journey.

that's, that's quite a skill because, Storytelling, um, is really how it, how it works within, within our business. Being able to tell a story that people believe, that, that could be, that could be through change as well, because, you know, people have to understand that the reason why we are making the change is good for the business and that it has, there's some deep thought that's gone into it and it is going to benefit the business.

When people realize that, regardless of the outcome, it's Regardless of whether I have a position or I don't, you understand the reason why. And as long as it's, it's, it's meaningful and it makes sense, then people engage with it. , and so you go through a lot of transformation, which is, we just really want to cut costs at, at, at any cost.

And there's blood on the floor. there's a lot of casualties. And people are confused. They don't understand why we've gone through this change and they take it personally. Whereas when you've thought it through and you've come with a very clear business plan, we've come with a very clear change process, then people can, they can tuck into that.

Um, even if it's not good news for them. So, you know, there's just   📍 there's just a couple of examples. I always love to think about, I mean, Ressie, um, from the Springboks, who's the son of the new coach. Um, I've, I've spent, yeah, I've spent quite a bit of time watching how he's managed to take a team that wants to win.

All right. But actually there's a connection within each one of those players. That means that they have to win. All right. So it's not about, we're just turning up, it's not about, we're just, we're going to play another game, but , it's the ability that Rassy has on his players. to actually connect, you know, the winning piece with the motivation that they have.

And, and that's a very exciting place to be because, because again, that's where the magic happens and that's when you can do and achieve many, many things.

Um, I really love that. And I always loved the example of connecting sports with business because that high input, high performance environment that we have, what we see in sports is really something that we want to recreate in business, but it's often very difficult, right? Because

There's not a, there's not a South African shirt that you're playing for or

it's a brand that you're playing for.

And so it's obviously different. But I wanted to kind of tie back to something that you just said earlier in your answer about giving people space and asking the right questions and giving people like creating that You know, that sense of, all right, let me, let me think about this problem differently, right? One of the things that I see a lot with people that are perhaps a little bit newer into leadership roles is that they feel they have to have all the answers

and they have to be telling rather than asking, right? It's a, it's a typical, I think, you know, issue that many people struggle with because they feel that if they don't, if they tell them and they don't ask, they're It's a, it's an easier way to get to the result that they want.

And you must've seen that a lot around you, right? Over the years that, uh, these, these kinds of challenges, but newer leaders stepping up, how can you, how can you help people feel more confident with actually asking questions instead of telling, so being a macro manager rather than a micro manager, if you will.

Yeah. So, so my, my view in terms of, um, values just just to just to build on that is that humility for me is a is a super is a super important value. So, you know, a servant leader and and somebody that is humble is something that is very rare, you know, very, very powerful when managing teams. And I do believe it comes so it flows down when you're leading teams.

And you, you come with a, with an agenda, which is, I'm not going to tell you everything, but I'm, I encourage you to challenge. Okay. in a,   📍 in a safe place where you know that, um, we're going to listen to you. Okay. Cause everybody has value and adds value. Then that does create a different environment. So, you know, when I, when I think about my guys, if I step out of line, I give them permission to call me out on this.

Yeah. Frequently. And it's quite a, it's quite a powerful place to be because, um, as a team, I know we are very, very successful. And it's the fact that they are super inquisitive that means that we can actually leapfrog and make a lot of progress. So I encourage people to ask questions. Meaningful questions.

Okay. They need to be thought through questions because you, you genuinely want to get a result or you genuinely don't understand something. And my commitment is I want to make sure that you are fully up to speed and fully understand what it is we're trying to deliver. So we work. Yeah. You've got to work as a team.

A lot of, to your point, a lot of young people come through and they get progression very, very early in the career. And that comes with the risk. Yeah. Because, they haven't quite, um, built on how they, how they manage those conversations. They're not quite at the place where they know how to ask the questions.

Um, in a structured way, um, you know, read really in terms of, in fact, I'll give you a really nice example here is that when I joined both hills and attain, um, compliance always said Rob, there's no way that because you guys are commercial. There's no way that you guys can get involved in compliance at all.

It's that you can't even attend the meetings. And it took four years at, at Hills. Well, probably three years at Hills and a couple of years at Mtain where we could all get around the table because we all understood that we had a single goal and I take it as seriously as anybody else in the business.

All right. So building that really, really strong relationship that says. You know, I'm not going to push on something that is going to jar with you. Yeah. Just for the sake of doing it is that we all grown up around the table. Yeah. We can all talk about the challenges that we're experiencing. Um, and as a collective, we are so 📍 powerful.  

Yeah. Um, one of the, one of our guys had always said to me before is that if Intane, uh, only knew what Intane knows, as in we have so much knowledge in the business, Yeah. But not many people share it. And it's quite a powerful piece because when you bring all that experience together, um, then again, you're very, very powerful, uh, in the market.

Yeah,

asking the right questions is so key because it is, it is like that people are sat in their silos, not intentionally necessarily, but are sat in their silos thinking. Um, and struggling perhaps with, with communicating

the exact things that other people need to know. So how, like in a large organization moving from, you know, uh, Victor Chandler, Stan James, even, I'd imagine it was quite

intimate as well to, to a far larger organization, which is now Vogue Hills, uh, and, and what are the big differences you feel between being in a small organization and being in a large organization, uh, and managing those complexities?

yeah. Yeah. So there's a number of points that Entain , has a lot of politics involved in this business. So you spend a lot of time managing up. Um, that's, that's far different to a private entity like Chandler's was back in the day or, uh, or Stan's back in the day, um, where you, you could just make a decision and move on, yeah?

Now you can't just make a decision because you've got to go through committees and steer codes and get approval and sign off, which means that the storytelling is so very important, um, that it's clear, uh, and that, and that it's simple and that people understand it. Um,   📍 I was away a couple of weeks back, um, uh, with, on a high performance, uh, leadership, uh, uh, meeting with some, some of our guys and, uh, two days in, um, I went to the guy that was leading the session and, um, I said to him, listen, Keith, in terms of, in terms of how I show up and I'm sitting in, in the meeting, I said, don't, please don't be put off if you, if you see me there in the corner, quiet and not necessarily contributing.

So it's because you've got to understand that I'm a, I'm a deep thinker. That's how, that's how I operate, which means that, you know, when we're discussing problems or how we, how we fix those problems, what's going on in the back of my mind is, you know, picking up on all the different touch points that that's going to impact to make sure that it does actually work.

And he turned around and he said to me, Rob, you've been operating in stealth mode your life. And what was amazing about that statement is, is yes, yes, it was true. Okay. Is that because I'm an introverted thinker, because I very happy to go away and let it consume me for the next week. I don't necessarily share that information with other people.

And so, so that stealth that's that piece of work around stealth was quite an eye opener for me because you've got to balance that out.   📍 You can go away and work in stealth mode, which is absolutely fine. But then you have to come back and be transparent and you have to come back and share the ideas and share the plan.

Um, otherwise, in fact, when I, when I sit and talk with our guys, I might have 19 or 20 projects working in the background and none of them would necessarily know about that. Again, because I'm sneaking back into stealth mode. So, very much in terms of my leadership style, working in those different environments, um, especially in a, in a, in a, an operation like ENTAIN, where there's a lot of politics involved, is I have to over index on the transparency piece, and I have to really talk about that storytelling piece.

which is the unifying story. Yeah. So, hey, this is what we're doing guys. Here's the detail of it and keep doing that because if you remember working in a super fast paced business, what's, you know, we're doing something this week and in two weeks time, it might be totally different again.

Yep.

you have to over index on the communication piece and make sure that everybody's coming along the story.

Yep. Love that. One of the things I also really loved about what you just said there, Rob, about being a deep thinker and is   📍 that we are not all the same. Right. And very often, I think, as you know, stepping into a new role, we think we need to fit in some sort of managerial leadership box. And

we all need to operate. In the same way or think in the same way, and that's simply not true. Um, one of the things I love about you, Rob, is that you communicate that quite well. You communicate how that you might actually sit in that corner and be quiet for a minute because you're thinking through something, right? But how?   📍 how? has that changed over time?

That can't have been always, can't have always been the same. You might have, is that an area that you've struggled with historically? Is that something that you've picked up and made your strength over time? How's that, how's that specific skill set of yours, that being a deep thinker evolved over time?

Yeah.

of it now than I've ever been. Um, and, and, and just to build on that, and just to build on that, and I have shared this with you before, but I have fascinated over just a single statement around happiness, fulfillment, engagement being found in the struggle of everything we do every day.

And you can apply that to your personal relationships. You can apply that to your work environment. Um, but I absolutely fascinate on that point. Um, that.   📍 Instead of running away from challenges every day, that I actually run towards them because within that challenge is actually very, very likely I'm going to find a lot of engagement and happiness and fulfillment.

Um, so so because I'm more conscious of it, I'm more inclined to throw myself into super challenging scenarios. Um, I've never been conscious of it before. In fact, My boys who are older now, um, when the rains come down, you know, we've had rain in the last week. The first thing that I was saying is, dad, did you go out in the Jeep?

Did you go and jump in the Jeep and go and find some people that are stuck in the mud? And it's funny cause we, we look back and that's what we used to do. You know, when, when the, when the rain came down, we'd get some rope in the back and, and, you know, go and find the challenges that are out there. That was just a subconscious thing.

But, you know, You know, it's always been there, um, in terms of, um, you know, running into the challenges, a lot of deep thought around those challenges and how we solve for them. It does come at it, does come with a risk, yeah? Because, because what I, what I find is that that will consume you, but does consume me every day, all day, probably seven days a week.

So   📍 you have to be super conscious that, well, I do need to switch off. do need to stop thinking about these things and focus on family and focus in other areas of my life in terms of well being. Um, but it is a superpower. So we all have our own superpowers. Okay. Um, and it's important to understand that within the team environment, you don't want to have everybody that's a deep thinker.

No, not exactly.

that's, that's, that's, that's not necessarily helpful. Um, but I understand my place within the team.

yeah,

And that's quite key because that allows me to relax. That allows us as a team to perform very well because we've thought it through in detail. Um, but I guess just coming back to the point, the older I get, the more comfortable I am with who I am.

I don't feel I have to necessarily go and prove anything. And if I don't feel like saying anything, I won't say anything. Yeah, unless it's meaningful and it's going to add value then yes, then I'll jump in and and we'll start talking about it But up to that point, I'm very comfortable to keep quiet And just listen Yeah,

is such a key, key, thing that you're talking about, right? key thing that you're talking about, right? Being yourself and actually Not, not, not doing things that you think you should or being a person that you think you should be, but actually just being yourself and communicating that out. One thing that you've just said there, Rob, is, uh, for a deep thinker like you, one of the big important things is that switching off, right?

Because you know, you're going to have running thoughts continuously. What is, what is something that you do to help you switch off?

it needs to be a total distraction for myself that tends to be around exercise Getting up riding a bicycle But something I've something I'm conscious of is that I'm awake at five o'clock in the morning You know, five, six o'clock in the morning, I'm wide awake and for many years I've spent that time, um, rolling, you know, lying in bed trying to go back to sleep instead of actually embracing it and getting up and thinking, well, maybe, maybe my, my brain is trying to tell me something here because my best times of the day are actually first thing in the morning.

So, you know, getting up,   📍 getting up at six where you've got really good quality quiet time. There's no distractions, there's no noise. Um, really allows me to, um, to think about what it is I'm doing during the day. Plan for the day. So I'm not spending my whole day in that deep thinking state. I actually assign time in the day to do that.

Do it first thing in the morning, when there's nobody around. Um, read as much as I can. as part of my distraction and then, and then absolutely plan the day ahead of me. So So when I come into the office and the meeting is from nine o'clock through to five o'clock meeting after meeting after meeting, I don't have to then rush home and carry on working because I've already prepped and planned early in the day.

And that helps me get control of this crazy animal that, you know, we work in this environment that we work in. just to control it. Yeah. And, and that allows me to spend time and be in the moment with the family. So, you know, when I'm sitting at home and I'm talking to my wife or my boys, I'm actually there.

I'm not, I'm not deep in thought thinking about something else. And you've got to be ruthless about these things. You really have to assign time, very clearly assigned time to say at this time of the day, I'm going to be doing this. And when I'm finished work, I'm going to dedicate my time. You know, I'm going to be in the moment and I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to be there for that session of the day.

Um, and actually what's fascinating is when you break that down, you really don't have a lot of time left. So when you, when you break it down and say, well, I'm going to, I'm going to, do my emails between six and seven. And I'm going to have my deep thought between seven and eight. And then I'm going to have my breakfast and whatever until nine, I'll be in the office.

And then you've got all your meetings, you know what I mean?   📍 When you start to break it down, you begin to realize how did I. How did I ever get anything done without really planning the day ahead of me? No wonder why, no wonder why you get home and you're tired because you're trying to log on and read content.

Bear in mind, regulatory changes is a lot of documentation that you've got to read and try and, uh, try and keep in your mind. So I'm doing all of that stuff at the wrong time of the day.

Yep.

I need to do it at the right time of the day and then everything seems to flow through nice and clearly.

Marker

📍 📍   📍 I Just a quick word of encouragement that if you're also struggling to switch off. Or find better balance in life then that's really normal. Many of the I gaming leaders that I've spoken with really struggle with that as well. It's very typical for being in a high pressure, fast paced industry. And it's difficult to kind of break out of that. Now if that's something that you want some support with, we've actually created the I gaming leader mastermind, where we help people live, lead and perform at their best using science proven methods to help them achieve sustainable peak performance. If that's something that you want to join, please head over to I gaming leader.com. And apply. Let's get back into the interview. 📍

One of the expressions I love, maybe, maybe this maybe this is one that you're going to think about for a long time as well, is that give your most important work the best of you instead of what's left of you. And I think

most people actually do it the other way around, right? They do their most important work after all the back to backs, whenever they have time.

And one of the key things is actually to take charge of your time and take charge of your calendar. And align that with how your brain works, right? Like you were saying, you, you're up early because that's how your brain works and you feel energetic and so align your most important work with that. I think it's key.

Finding the balance is very, very important.

Last two questions for you, Rob. First, what are the skills or behaviours that you for in leaders that you try to employ within your teams? What are some of the things that you find really important the team that you manage?

Yeah, look, there's a number of things. There's a, there's a statement that says, love the one you're with. It doesn't matter what it looks like. It doesn't matter what the plane conditions are. Um, and that's very important because, because the people that I employ and the teams that I work with, it's not going to be plane sailing every day.

It's going to be, it's going to be challenging months, maybe even challenging years. And so how those individuals turn up and behave is super important to me. In fact, the experience is, is counts for a lot, but the behavior counts for more.

Yep.

Okay. So   📍 when you wake up in the morning, you know, you've, you have to put on that game face.

Even if you don't want to put it on, you have to put it on because as leaders, people are looking up to you. And in fact, it's, it's, it's, there's a funny saying that the children of the people that you manage know you by name. So, you know, when the people that you manage go home, they talk about you.

talk about you as a leader.

They know you by your first name

and for the bad. Um, so it's very important that, um, I mean, there's a couple of values that I really drive forward. And I did mention that just in terms of. I would rather somebody, you know, be humble and have honesty and integrity. I can work with that. You You know, I can work with those behaviors.

People that are engaged and genuinely want to be here, yeah? We can teach you about how to run this business and we can teach you the skill sets that you need to run the business, but I can't train 📍 📍 in the behaviors. So So those for me are super, super important. Um, you know, we practice a lot of, there's a lot of listening.

to what people have to say.   📍 I don't have all the answers. I don't want to have all the answers either. Yeah. Because as a team, we need to contribute and we need, we need to get the solution over the line. Um, so really good listening, a lot of humility, and we are here to serve at the end of the day,

Yep.

it or not.

Yep. Love it. Yeah, it's true. I love it. Um, and especially, you know, be the manager that you wish you had, right? It's, it's such an important piece of advice, I think, because it's, our managers, you know, managers have more, more impact on your happiness than

most other people in your lives. So, uh, that is such a crucial piece.

Really love that.

Yeah. Look, we, we, we, we are super fortunate that we can. We can lead the business. The problem with a lot of people is they want to be told what to do. And the minute you realize that, I mean,   📍 📍 📍 I mean, if you think about it as your business, how would I run my own business? You know, what decisions would I make? So when, when there's a lot of fat in the business in terms of the payroll and you see that, you know, the company has taken a decision around restructuring, you, you apply to yourself, what would I do in that situation?

And, um, that means we take ownership and we take responsibility for how we do things. Um, and if, unless you turn up to work like that, then the challenges you're going to face is that you won't be around very long because you have to be adaptable. You've got to be able to understand that the business structure is going to change in the way that the business is run.

If you look at regulation, for instance, I always say regs come, it's going to come to everybody's door. It doesn't matter what, Markets you're in, whether you're Germany, Austria, Spain, it doesn't matter. Regulation will come, whether it's a marketing or affordability or player protection, it's going to come to your door.

So you have to be forward thinking, not only forward thinking, you've got to be open to saying, well, hang on, maybe I need to explore some of the areas that are not within regs today. It's just a mindset. If you think about the tobacco industry, they went through exactly the same challenges as we. 

📍 pretty much having gaming. So you've got marketing prohibitions and you've got underage considerations that you need to factor in. And so we, we think outside of the box, you know. What if as an example, what if there was a total prohibition on gambling for 18 to 25s And what would we do in that environment?

It's just how you think about these challenges that is super important.

Yep, And then my final question, uh, Rob, for listeners that, um, might want to have as an impactful career as, as you've had over the, over the 20 years. What's one piece of advice that you would offer maybe your younger self just starting out in, in gaming?

So. I mean, mean, I have thought about this quite often. And I think that The biggest challenge is the pace, um, that I've moved at over the last 20 years. It hasn't been quick enough. And what I mean by that is like when I was a child at Victor's, you know, I was there for seven, eight years. Um, but in hindsight, I should have moved quicker.

I should have absolutely taken opportunity quicker because only moving from, uh, from, from Chandra's to Stan's did I realize actually. There's something different out here for me, because I, Victor Chandler ran through my blood. Yeah, I was super passionate about the brand. I never, ever wanted to leave that brand.

But the minute I left, I suddenly realized there's something bigger out there for me. And to build on that again,  📍 when I left Stanz, I was with Stanz for about 15, 16 months. When I left Stanz, I then went and, and I worked in the startup casino. And again. the experience as well. There's something different out here for me.

And then going over to EPG, which is a payment gateway. Again, there's something new out here for me. So what I found is that my seasons, um, were shorter and shorter and and shorter. Okay. So, you know, if you think of childhood as eight years and then every other season I've had is four years or two years, I'm just super conscious that You know, change does happen and that I should really embrace it and move with it rather than sitting in a season, all right, because I think we're all guilty of this.

We sit in a season and we just, we just stagnate in that season. Yeah. If the season is finished. So my encouragement to anybody is if you feeling that the season is finished, then get up and move. Yeah. Don't stay in that and stagnate because there's so much opportunity out there and I would rather be, I'd rather be going out, um, and taking a risk, okay, for something which is bigger out there that's going to help me develop and grow than sit in a stagnant position for many, many years.

so yeah, the pain, I think for me, if I could play it back, I would, I would definitely move quicker, and be more, more intent. Around what it is I wanna do. Um, the, the one of, one of the ladies that worked here, Julie Dalman, um, she was, uh, she was running the UK for a couple of years here, and Julie always had this, uh, she had a fascinating, um, way of visualizing decision making.

And she always said to me, you know, Rob, what are your must have? What are your five must haves around decision making? So, you know, your must have means that I need development, um, or I need a bigger salary, or I need a certain location, or I need to be close to my family, or I 📍 📍 need to be healthy, or, you know, what are the must haves that you need in order to either stay in the job that you're doing, or move into something else? 

And if your must haves are that four out of the five or five out of the seven, whatever it is, all crosses, that's the wrong decision. Yeah. But if the must haves are all ticked, then you move, you know, so if I'm sitting in a position and I'm feeling stagnated and I'm not getting developed, you know, just go through the process of what are my must haves.

And if they're not there, then you know, the season's over and it's time to move.

Fantastic note to end on. Thank you very much, Robin, and thank you for being so open and honest and sharing all of your experience has been fantastic. Thank you.

Brilliant. Thank you, Leo  

  📍 📍 Wow. What a great conversation with Rob it's left me so inspired because we all know the challenges that Entain has been through over the last few years. So him opening up about how he's gone through that and what kind of leader he is, I found really insightful. It left me with three specific takeaways. The first one was that it's really about being authentically you, right?

Embracing yourself and who you are and leading in a way that's. You know, it's true to your values. It's such an important skill to have as a high performance leader. The second thing is that it's all about embracing change as well. Businesses will go up and down and it's inevitable. So as a high performance leader, your ability to ride with that change and embrace change is such a key skill in also helping your teams become high-performance teams. And the third thing, which I loved the most was his approach to actively seeking out challenges, because he finds happiness and engagement on the other side of that challenge. And that is so true, isn't it?

Every single dream that we have goes to die inside of our comfort zone. It's outside of our comfort zone where all our dreams happen. So I really loved his approach there. So that's it for this week. If you found this episode helpful, please leave a rating or review.

It helps us so much with other gaming leaders, like you finding this podcast. And if you've already done that, you're an absolute legend. Make sure that you send it to somebody else that might need to hear this podcast as well. So that's it for this week. Next week, we're interviewing Dmitry Belianin.

He is the CEO and founder of actually three different companies. He's serial entrepreneur. He's been in the industry for 17 years. Real high performer. Has got some fantastic insights on what it requires to move from, starting off early in your career, all the way to his case, running three different businesses.

So I'd love for you to see that episode next week. I hope to see you there. And I'll speak to you soon. Take care.