Podcast Episode 16: Stand for yourself and believe in yourself — Leadership lessons from Elena Chambers

Leo Judkins: Elena. I am so excited to have you here on the podcast. Really, uh, really great. I've been so looking forward to speaking to you because I did this podcast with Andrew Bullers and he said, you have got to speak to Elena. So welcome to the podcast.

Really excited to have you here.

Elena Chambers: Oh, I'm very excited too. So I've never done this before. So I'm looking forward to see if I can bring some value into our gaming community.

Leo Judkins: I bet you will. You've got such a rich history. Your journey started out as starting as a PA, and then moving to leading a billion pound transformation business is incredible.

[00:02:00] What I'd love to start with, on that entire journey of yours, what have been some of your, your proudest moments?

Elena Chambers: I'm pretty proud of everything that I have achieved, but also having said that, To a large degree, there's a lot of luck in there, and I don't want to underestimate it. I think I've been very, very lucky to meet really great people, on the journey that I've always learned, and I think this is one of the things that I always look at in the leadership and in my bosses is, is there something I can learn from them?

So, I have been very, very, very lucky to meet people that kind of complemented my experience, my leadership skills. Skills and so on and so forth. So, I've started in finance. I thought my career was gonna be as in, into CFO, didn't work out, uh, very well. I didn't really like the numbers part and the lack of people engagement.

So I moved very quickly into transformation and change and projects and strategy , et cetera. And through that, , I have been also quite lucky. That I was always reporting to people that were probably two, three levels above me.

[00:03:00] That meant that I have a lot to learn. It also helped me to progress, quite fast.

So, BAT was a big highlight. I still feel like it's my alma mater and I've been there for 12 years. And, that was great. I've traveled the world with them. And, WBA, I think the biggest highlight was I met my husband there, so, uh, so that's, that's not necessarily a career highlight, but was an important step on my journey, my professional journey. 

Then I went to William Hill. I loved every minute I spent there for five years was William Hill originally and then post merger with 888. I still stayed there for a while and there was great experience, great team, lots of learning and lots of different things I've done there. Again, working with great, great, great people, not only from a boss, but the team was amazing as well.

And then, Allwyn now, so I'm excited.

Leo Judkins: [00:04:00] Love it. I really love it. I, I'd like to start out with when you first moved into gaming and you'd gone to Hills, you, you took over, 

really, the last remaining work from McKenzie, right? That must have been quite challenging moving there. But but also within a year or just after a year, you progressed into your first executive role, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that first year looked like and what what that step up meant for you as well and how you actually got there, because loads of people that will be listening will be looking for that next step.

So I'd love to hear your perspective on how that went. Yes.

Elena Chambers: It was very interesting. So first of all, maybe two seconds of why I ended up in

gaming. So it was not planned to start with at all. I was finishing my executive MBA in New York. So I've been a lot traveling to us and that was the year where the passport happened. So that was very interesting.

What's actually going to happen with the industry? And I got an opportunity to join William Hill. They already had a lot of presence in the U S, working with scissors and lots of plans. 

[00:05:00] So that was just for me, an exciting industry to see what's actually going to happen, because clearly that's probably will transform it to a large degree. I was not a gambler or a gamer in any shopper form. I didn't know what I'm going into. It was just another regulated business at that point of time for me. But also at the same time, it wasn't a very new type of role. When I joined WBA, I also was a first in house. 

So I was sort of change transformation leader at the senior level, so the same happened in William Hill. So It was no sort of centralized capability to run transformation, strategic projects. There was some things to pick up from McKinsey after a lot of work they've done for post profit warning but for me was also what's going to happen after and there's a lot of change and transformation that had to be driven at the global level. 

For me, that was an introduction to an industry. So I've spent a lot of time talking to people because I was the only one with a little team. I got into so many different things. So from regulatory to revenue, didn't generation to marketing, to finance transformation, it asset management.

[00:06:00] I mean, you name it. So things are completely different that had to be driven at the central level. worked quite closely with Ulrich Bengtsson. He was a chief digital officer at that time. And, build quite close relationships with people across the group. So for me, the skills that were required for that role a year after to become chief of staff for the CEO were a lot about transformation and driving change in the very structured way. So it was a very natural for me progression. 

And I was very excited to be part of something new. So I joined Ulrich as a head of executive office at the beginning and then, , also running change or continue running change, but eventually into chief of staff. So, , throughout my career and, and in, as I joined William Hill and progressing into that, C level, uh role, the main thing or the main learning.

[00:07:00] Is, they could put into when there is and you never know. I never ask a question. What is going to give me because I don't think anyone can answer that question. And also, it's always in your hands on what do you take out of it? And you know, many in many ways, you can shape the opportunity when you order there.

So just like Andrew used to say a lot, be curious, take the opportunity and see what comes out of it.

Leo Judkins: That's such an important part of it. Just being curious. He actually mentioned it in the podcast as well. He said it's one of the biggest leadership characteristics for anybody at the executive level. So I'd love to, I mean, with your, as a cultural background and you moving around to, to different countries, being in different businesses.

How is that? How's that been for you? What was some of the challenges perhaps that you've like as a leader managing different teams? What are some of the challenges that you've run into there with managing international teams and managing different cultures, running into your own culture even right with how we are perceived and how we are.

How did that show up for you in your career?

Elena Chambers: I think this is one of the biggest, leadership skills, learnings. Is the ability to listen, right? And observe. And sometimes this is all you need to do. And then the answer on how to engage with that particular person or organization or culture kind of comes up, on its own.

[00:08:00] If you just listen and observe how people behave and what they need and how do they interact and so on. How they make decisions. Because the biggest part of my role, before and as a chief of staff, but also now for example, Norwin, is to make sure we drive forward. And for that you need a team that is aligned, that talk to each other. 

That has the same goal, same vision, same plan and so on and so forth. So for me, spending quite a bit of time in Asia, which is very, very different to Europe and then going to South America for a period of time, working a lot with us so different cultures. And so very different ways of interacting with people gives you an ability to be so versatile, but also beautiful. be ready to listen every time when you talk to people. 

So regardless of whether you may think that you already know the answer, sometimes it's very important that you actually spend some time listening and, even if they may disagree at the end or whatever that may be. outcome can be. 

[00:09:00] I think listening is very big, big skill, especially at the leadership level, because we forget sometimes that if we're at C level, we know the answers. That's not necessarily true. And I do believe that one of the biggest traits in sea level, Executives in gaming or anywhere else is to, build the team and trust the team knows better, often. So, that's a big skill to get, I think.

Leo Judkins: Yeah, I love that. I think a big part of that, that listening to understand rather than listening to reply is such a, it's such a powerful reframe as well. And, often people forget that if you're listening just to reply, because you feel that you know better, and perhaps you do know better, that doesn't engage the team at all, right?

When you think about yourself, it's when you feel heard, that you actually engage and that you feel, you know, feel part of the team, man. I believe that's really, really key there.

Elena Chambers: I genuinely believe there is no problem. A bad employee. I mean, there are rare occasions, but in most of the cases it is just how we use that particular skill set or that particular person, an attitude and whatever, in the right place. 

[00:10:00] And sometimes being able to listen to your team can help you also to use your team in the best possible way. So they can grow and they also deliver the impact that they can deliver. Utilizing the resources, the talent. capability to their best capacity because it's very dangerous when you take someone who is really good. 

And then you start pushing that person and everything in a different direction. You can actually ruin someone's career because they may not be really good, they could be good with one thing, but not good for the other. And I think it also ability to listen to your team can help you as a manager, as a leader. To utilize your team in the best possible way.

Leo Judkins: Really important for empathy. Love that. Really great advice. So, outside of leadership lessons, I'd love to pull it back to you and talk a little. Like every leader has their challenges, their moments that they've grown through, things that have been difficult and things that really shaped them in their leadership career.

[00:11:00] What have been some of those moments for you?

Elena Chambers: I think, the main challenge, for me throughout a long period of time, and probably not as much now, but still there, as being, a young woman, Russian, is, career wise, not always the best combination. To progress and, I always try to use it to my advantage eventually.

But at the beginning, it was quite challenging and I got quite frustrated and upset about that and thinking it's not fair and all kind of emotional sort of response to that. But ultimately, I learned to a large degree. To use it to my advantage. Yes, I'm, uh, young so that I have more energy and I'm more innovative or modern and I'm more in tune with what's going on in the world.

And then I'm Russian, so I am actually quite direct and, a lot, a lot of people, uh, do appreciate that. So, people find it easier to interact and being a female. Is actually, in most cases becoming an advantage and more and more because there are ways that, I can find, the paths to, to a solution or to, a decision that, may not be, possible for a man.

[00:12:00] So, it's a great, great characteristic that can be leveraged to an advantage. you? Just need to learn that.

Leo Judkins: Have you got specific examples of that where you really found that that was super helpful? Any of those three kinds of areas?

Elena Chambers: On the Russian side. So there was a saying even and William Hill at some point that, uh, or Ulrich being my boss will say, you need to go Russian on them. So, and that was not in a bad way, but it's almost like you need to get stuff done, be very structured and direct and driven and things like that.

And, people already appreciate that. And that became a joke, in a way. And then. And I also, felt that because there became a joke and it's kind of became a, a theme, to a certain extent about around me, I started to use it to my advantage and I would feel more comfortable be myself and not try to kind of be a little bit more, diplomatic where I would just be more comfortable to be who I am. 

[00:13:00] I think it's also the good thing that my manager and my team, my team, I mean, the peer group realized that this is an additional skill that they may need sometimes who will be openly challenging, asking difficult questions, pushing for things, get done. That's a complimentary skill for people who may not be very vocal or be over diplomatic in a way.

Elena Chambers: So some balance of, of that could be very useful.

Leo Judkins: That makes a lot of sense and that's super, super helpful because I think one of the big things is that, often when we try to, we try to please or we try to show ourselves in a way that we're not, we, we like you, you're almost, you're wearing a mask, right? And that makes it, uh, that makes it really difficult to interact with people and people see right through that.

It doesn't make you a leader to follow. So from that cultural background, it's you've been direct all your life. I suppose that also has gotten you into trouble sometimes or maybe even reactions that you know. You didn't expect.

[00:14:00] How did you deal with that?

Elena Chambers: Definitely. So, and I think, my two years in Asia, kind of polished, my Russian heritage quite a bit. Because simply that's a very different culture. It's a very different way of interacting, especially with a woman. I mean, operations in Japan and it's just a very different environment.

And being Russian, wouldn't get me anywhere and I've learned that very, very quickly. Thankfully. But that also gave me perspective on where to use and how to use the toolkit I have, because it is my toolkit. I do get stuff done and that's part of who I am and what I do. So, that gave me just a different perspective of how to use it in the places where it's appropriate and how to kind of make it less, visible and, that much into your face. 

[00:15:00] So definitely had some issues, where people would just ignore me because they couldn't understand why would I even say anything? And that's back to young woman, Russian.

So I think it's a combination of everything. But as I said, I tried to reflect and observe and understand what works and what doesn't. And sometimes you just need to make sure that you don't just use the same toolkit for everything because one doesn't fit all, back to what I am probably repeating myself.

You need to listen first, maybe before you say anything. And that may help you to kind of make sure that you try to achieve success to start with rather than after a few failures, before that. So.

Leo Judkins: Yeah, great advice. Adaptive leadership. Such a key skill. So let's talk a little bit about being successful as a woman in, you know, male dominated industry and something that I suppose, yeah, it's being worked towards, but it's still like miles behind where it should be. So, tell me a little bit more about that.

[00:16:00] You mentioned that also as a strength, but I also love to hear from you what you'd say to women in the industry that perhaps feel that they're hitting a ceiling because of how they're being perceived or perhaps because of a lack of opportunities. To me a little bit about that and how that's gone for you and what you would advise other women in the industry.

Elena Chambers: I think they're twofold. One thing I would like to, , a little bit of a call to action, maybe for women in my position, is that we should help women that are minus one, minus two, and so on and so forth, because that's it make it easier for them. In many ways, that became very, very natural for me.

So, I can say that, complete coincidence, it was no intentional sort of Selection criteria or anything, but then the William Hill out of 10 direct reports. I had seven women and It's just because they were great and they were better than anyone else and it is just I gave them a chance It was no preconception Against that so I think for me and advice C level or even C minus one, try to give it a little bit of extra attention and, be a spokesman, for colleagues of female colleagues.

[00:17:00] And then for those who are still kind of on the journey, from my perspective, just be yourself. I think if you try to mimic your male colleagues' behavior, that's not going to get you anywhere because you're not a man, you're a woman. So, try to think about what. What is your advantage? What is your differentiator apart from longer hair and a different type of, I don't know, clothing? What additional leadership skills do you have or different types of different qualities that men may not have? And try to use them as much as possible. Think You just need to grab an opportunity use the skills that nobody else have From the female side, but in general, I mean if you want to be agree you There's a you either you're in digital marketing or you were in I don't know product development That are normally heavily male dominated, but you're still an expert in your field.

[00:18:00] And on top of that, you probably have other things that 90 percent of your sort of competitors on a career journey won't have. So just, instead of trying to hide it and mimic the rest, be yourself. , use what you have to your advantage and, maybe sometimes highlight it.

And when you have a conversation, a career discussion or progression discussion with your boss, say, well, I'm actually much better with empathy and I'm a much better leader for my team. And, make sure you do notice that and that it goes on record because sometimes people. ignore that, or don't count for it.

Not because they don't want to, it's just because it didn't come to their mind, and on top of that, I'm a great expert, functional expert in what I do. I also have this and that and that, and that's probably the differentiator because we are built differently from the way we think, the way we do things, between men and women in most ways, which is good.

[00:19:00] And that's why I'm not ever recommended to have a hundred percent. Female team as much as it's wrong to have a hundred percent male team. I think it's a great balance and the the research says the most effective teams are 50 50 50 so

Leo Judkins: I think in general, you're so right. Diversity, even taking it beyond man versus woman, diversity is so important in a team, right? We don't want just copycats of each other because that brings no new knowledge, that brings no new ideas, that brings no new, that doesn't bring any innovation or transformation.

So I think you're so right. And I think that, I don't know if this is true, but often I believe that that's where people feel. stuck almost if they're looking at, okay, I want to move. I want to progress. I need to, you, you said it earlier. I need to be the same as this other person. Well, you don't, you bring your own unique skills and character traits and, and cultural traits and, you know, beliefs to, to that role.

And that's actually exactly what's needed. 

Elena Chambers: [00:20:00] 100 percent agree and One of the biggest skills for a leader is to be able to pick that team in a way that they compliment each other. They don't repeat each other. They compliment each other. And that means that there will be different personalities, different backgrounds, different genders. But you're totally right. It's not just about gender. I mean, just by having a Russian, a Brit, a French, an American and a Spanish in the same team. It already gives you a lot of diversity and different perspectives and different ways of thinking and different ways of approaching problems. And I think it's very important. 

Leo Judkins: One of the big things that I often see with leaders, it doesn't really matter what level, but where it happens a lot in gaming, there's a people progress really quickly in their career. It's because there's a shallow, shallow talent pool. Often people that you know, are good at what they're doing.

They're experts in their field. They get progressed really quickly. And sometimes they lack a little bit of leadership skills. And sometimes that goes together with fear of failure and wanting to step up. And that creates this, almost this micromanagement culture where you find it difficult, to have that diversity, right, to, to lean into different viewpoints because.

[00:21:00] People almost want to control what that team looks like. Have you ever experienced that, where you see people that have progressed really quickly in their careers, perhaps are struggling to let go of some of the responsibilities that they've had and therefore don't, structure their teams in a way that is maybe best for the business?

Elena Chambers: Yes, I have seen that before, numerous occasions, I think, and maybe not at the C level that much.

In general, as people progress, you know, letting go is a very important skill, and this is also determined if you can't let go yourself, which also determines how good you are with prioritization. And, in the world of, very highly growing innovative industry, like we are, and there's a lot happening, you need to be very focused on what you're actually going to focus on because you can't do everything. 

[00:22:00] You can't do, and that and that and casual gaming and free to play and innovate and end to market and mature market share and do retail omni channel and whatever, right? So there are so many things that you can do. You need to really pick. What you are going to do and what you're not going to do. And I think the ability of maturing

and letting go, even things that you think are really important and really exciting. And you're so used to them

and so, okay, now I am, one step up, two step ups. I have to stop because I need to do this. I cannot do the new five things and the five things I used to be doing before I need to build the team that I can trust to do those five things

and I only focus on the other five because otherwise you're probably going to fail, in your new role because you will genuinely navigate to what you know, 

and you're never going to grow into new activities, new skills, new areas of responsibility and so on and so forth.

[00:23:00] So I think when you progress through your career, you really need to say, okay, now, how do I make sure that whatever I've built for, for some period of time doesn't collapse with me going out, but equally, I now need to focus on something different, bigger, or whatever that may be. That's a very, very important skill of letting go, 

which is basically 

Leo Judkins: advice. It is such a difficult part of it because we often think that when we're progressing in our career, you think about maybe imposter syndrome hits you a bit, and you feel about, you think about all of the things that you now need to learn or that you need to develop because you're new to that role.

And of course, it's going to be outside of your comfort zone. So you're going to feel a little bit uncomfortable, but the advice you never hear, which is yours. What are the things that you need to let go of? So that you can actually get new things in, right? Start doing new things. And, very often we think about all of the new things that we need to learn instead of the things that the baggage that we still hold that we just need to drop.

Elena Chambers: [00:24:00] But I also think, and I don't know, it's probably one of the things that is easier to do for women than for men, is that I wouldn't, I never minded to have, I didn't, never had an issue to go and say, I don't know.

Leo Judkins: Right. Yeah. 

Elena Chambers: I'm very humble about it. I'm, I never said I don't think I can do it. I said, I don't know. I need to learn.

Help me.

I'd love to learn. I want to listen. I want to understand and you know better. So I think not to be afraid of the fact that you are stepping into a new role or a more senior role. There will be things that you don't know that by

default. Otherwise, it's not interesting, right? So there will be things that you're new to, new responsibility, new, you know, capability that you need to develop, uh, I don't know, new people you need to manage and there could be skills that you've never been exposed to before at all. 

[00:25:00] And, curiosity and ability to listen and being humble about the fact that it's fine not to know, I think it's very critical. 'cause if you're gonna try to pretend that you do. who do know, they would see that you actually don't have a clue what you're talking about. 

And that may impact your external perception, which may fuel back even further your own insecurity and your own further sort of, no, I know, I know, I know, and then you feel uncomfortable about this. But I think being comfortable, about the fact that you don't know certain things, and that's absolutely fine, is also a very good thing.

And it's probably, and maybe I'm generalizing, but it's I think easier to do for women, than for a man to say, help me, I don't know.

Leo Judkins: So what advice would you give with some, for somebody that is struggling with that, with perhaps, feeling comfortable with saying that they don't know or, that perhaps feels that they have to meet certain standards, but they, when they look at themselves in the mirror, they, they feel that they're absolutely not there yet.

What would you say to them? What's some steps that they could take?

Elena Chambers: [00:26:00] Well, I think it's, first of all, there are two things. If you don't believe, genuinely don't believe you can do the role, don't take it. That's full stop. Because that's going to ruin, maybe you want to do it, but you need another year. Don't do something that you personally don't believe you can grow into or do.

If you got the role and you believe you can do it, then believe in yourself. Right? So then, look at yourself in the mirror and say, I can do it. And nobody is going to prove the opposite. And then the third thing, I do advise people not to be afraid to be humble.

And, yes, I know sometimes that it may be difficult to publicly accept that you don't know something, but maybe pick up on a few, two, three peers, colleagues, maybe your boss and it's okay. I think I need help in these two, three areas. How would you recommend me to approach it? Whether it's via, I don't know, additional training, additional coaching, doing maybe also as a preparation, if you think, okay I'm planning to step up into that bigger role. 

[00:27:00] Where will potentially be my gaps in the future? So you can already start to work on them in advance. So I had that. I said, okay, I don't, I have no idea about P&L management. And it was, I was quite nervous. I mean, I was, I had no doubts I can do it. But I've never done this before to a large degree.

And then it was difficult for me to make sure that I stand next to my peers that they have been doing this for 20 years. And I don't say something stupid. So I said, I don't want P&L management in my new role. But I want an ad hoc ability to either run a project that involves P&L management or, be involved in certain activities that are sort of part of that, and so on and so that will give me some. additional skill set and equip me with these things for the future. 

So when it comes to it, maybe you're never going to be 100 percent ready, but I'm 50 percent ready. So there is a gap to cover, but it's not a massive gap. It's a little gap. And makes it easier. And then also you can tell yourself that, okay, I have done this, maybe not at scale, but I have done this so I can, I know how to do it.

Leo Judkins: [00:28:00] Love it. Great advice because so often I think people Almost feel that they will miss the opportunity if they don't bluff their way into it. You know, and it's just always the wrong way, the wrong thing to do. So if that's you and you're listening, Don't do it. 

Leo Judkins: [00:29:00] okay, cool. We had a question from one of the guys in the mastermind, uh, mastermind community, Fintan, he said, you spent a decade in tobacco before gaming, both like we talked about in the beginning, both industries face similar challenges with regulation, public perception.

What are some of the insights that you feel, could help gaming navigate these challenges specifically maybe around lobbying or sponsorship or advertising or any of, you know, the typical areas that, uh, we both struggle with.

Elena Chambers: So, the biggest advice is start transforming from inside when you can, not when you're forced to. It's a power of choice. Because when you are already in a situation, where in a huge pressure of regulation are already under pressure and you probably your margins, your revenue channels, et cetera, already under pressure.

Start thinking of how can you transform your industry? before. While you still have cash coming, and you're still profitable. You have an ability to make right decisions [00:30:00] rather than decisions that you have to make because they are very short term focused.  

You also have time to make mistakes. And I think tobacco. Knowing what's coming back in 2000, early 2000s, a lot of companies at different pace started to focus on two things, how to make business more efficient because they knew that at some point, the margins will come under pressure. 

And, the second thing is how do we innovate because there will be, across Europe and multiple countries, there will be issues with, market, the public perception, the regulation that's why we have such a. Enormous amount of vapor or non tobacco products. And, we called them be it a new generation products and so on and so forth. But, when you look back, the only few companies that actually came out successful, or 20, 25 years ago, they were. Quite a few companies, broadly performing well, equally well. 

[00:31:00] And now there are some performing better than the others. On the contrary, there is a lot of, entry now from vaping, which are small companies have nothing to do, which creates a big, Big problem for a big tobacco giants like BET, like Philip Morris and how do they take that market and how do they transform that market and how they predict these things to happen? Because I think gaming will be very similar. 

There's more and more and more pressure, but people not going to stop. Gambling, they want to place a bet, they want to play a game, there's a lot of casual gaming that is now, running right, left and center, with a very, very different monetization model, because it's now, or start thinking about now, because it's still, there's still a lot up for grabs. But eventually this needs to transform and, , one way or the other, into a substantially more cash, but, casual. Way of spending time. What's gonna happen and what's gonna drive it? Is it marketing? Is it digital? Is it a new type of product and proposition?

[00:32:00] I think is, is this, the future will show, but whoever spends time on this now will be the winner. 10, 10 years down the line for 20 years.

Leo Judkins: Which is one of the big problems in gaming, I think, because most companies are so short term focused with, with, you know, instant revenues that they forget about the long term, but it is, it is inevitable. It also kind of leads me to a question from, from Rob really about Orwin and, you've got loads of experience, obviously, with leading business transformation, and he was asking, now being at Orwin, what's your views on turning around national lottery sales?

Is there a silver bullet around product innovation or technology? Or does it require, you know, a more comprehensive approach? And I appreciate this is not a black or white answer, but I'd love to kind of hear what you what your thoughts are on 

Elena Chambers: I think there is definitely there is no silver bullet. There is no one silver bullet. I think there is a lot of like in any business. It's up to product. It's about propositions about technology is about, digital products and how good they are and what the customer journey and what service they will provide to our customers and how to react to that.

[00:33:00] I think there is a lot. That needs to happen and a lot that needs to be done to make UK national lottery success. Yes, it's a gaming business, but ultimately it's a technology business, especially when it comes to iGaming. And, uh, a big part of what we do is innovating. So, from my perspective, technologies and underpins everything. So we need to sort out the technology side before we go any further. Exactly what we've just discussed on the regulatory pressure competitive pressure. If years ago it's a monopoly, it's only product on the market.

Whether it's good or bad, people will buy it. Now there's so many Adjacent type services that are not lottery lottery, but the likes of competitions, and radio competitions, all maze and internet competitions that are kind of very adjacent to what lottery does. It creates substantially more pressure on being [00:34:00]innovative, being better with customer reach, with customer service, with customer journeys, and so on and so forth. There's a lot of work to do. a good team there.

Leo Judkins: Good. Good. I'm happy to hear that. My final question is really around your own journey and what you would advise, advise others that are perhaps a few steps behind you on a similar journey. So if you would go back. Let's say five, six years. What's the advice that you would give yourself?

Or if you're very happy with exactly what you've done, what are some of the encouragement you would give yourself?

Elena Chambers: Yeah, I am actually quite happy. So I, I, I'm, as I said at the very beginning, I've been lucky that I took opportunities and opportunities did take me. Where I'm quite happy. But my advice and encouragement, would be, don't be afraid, to take something that may look that doesn't bring anywhere, or it's not their, your career plan, because you never know what can be at the end of it and what else you're going to learn, in addition to what you already know. 

[00:35:00] So take opportunities. See what comes out. There is no bad experience. Every experience is good experience. I had and I'll be very specific on that example. I had a venture into telco for nine months. It wasn't a good decision for me personally. It wasn't a good decision, but I've learned so much during those nine months, so I don't regret a second of it.

Was it a right career move? I'm not sure. Was it a good experience? A hundred percent. So I think opportunities when they are, don't be afraid to fail sometimes, because failure is, is, is a good experience as well.

Leo Judkins: Love it. Back yourself. Like, that's literally what I'm hearing in everything that you've said so far. Back yourself, right? Like, stand for yourself and, and believe in yourself. Super, super inspirational. Thank you so much for sharing your story and being on the iGaming Leader. I really love talking to you.

Elena Chambers: Thank you very much. Leo.