Leo Judkins:  Welcome everybody to the iGaming Leader. Today, I'm joined by Paris Smith, who,  most of you will know. 

Paris has been in the gaming industry for a very, very long time. Previous CEO for Pinnacle, of course, now living in Curaçao.

And, Just wanted to welcome you to the podcast and say, hi, great to have you.

Paris Smith: Thank you so much.

Leo Judkins:  You know, in our mastermind, I asked the question, who has been the person that has inspired you the most? And Julia from global gaming women said, it's Paris, She's got a huge fan crush.

[00:02:00]So, I'm really glad that you're here. 

Where I wanted to start, Paris, we've spoken a lot about kind of upbringing and  how our environment and the people around us really shape of performance that we have, right? I think it's something that most people perhaps know but don't really design around them.

I'd love to start with your story about basketball and how that environment has really helped you in achieving high performance.

Paris Smith: So it's interesting, you know, I, I've been a huge basketball player since I was very young and I got into it because all the guys in the neighborhood were basketball players and I was very young and they would always say, come on, let's play. 

The Neff boys and the doctors, you know, we always had those families. and it was so interesting because, recently I had somebody visiting me and they brought up to me something I'd completely forgotten summer. Every day at lunch, I would play basketball with my brother's friends. A lot of them played college basketball. They were very, very competitive and they let me play.

[00:03:00]I was like  13 years old and you know, they would not be easy on me and  He had asked me the question after reminding me of this, you know, why do you think you're able to succeed in this really man's led environment all these years? 

I thought, oh, my goodness, because I've always had the support of men. I've always like they taught me, you know, you don't get it easy. You don't get a break. You don't sit and whine. Oh, you can't do that to me. 

Oh, don't clothesline me because I'm a girl, of things.  of course they were all very protective, but you know, it was, it started with that. And then, I also had where I was able to start playing at a younger age because my dad advocated for letting the girls play peewee basketball, right?

So, you know, it was starting with that, then going and playing with these guys. And then when I would play in the season, it was so easy. 

[00:04:00]I was playing with girls my  age and in the summer I was playing with guys that are six years older than me and completely experienced. So,  I was very competitive.

I scored a lot of points. I mean, you know, I don't know if I'd be considered a ball hog. And then I went into college and played as well. And there's just, you know, I went to many, many competitive camps and recruiting camps and just that environment, right?

Of high performance, always doing your best. You're as strong as your weakest link. All these fundamental. kind of, values of leadership. I took those into my career and I think and also growing up in a very small town, I've always had a sense of community. So my career path brought me, the first job with W.

1. T. S. With Bill Scott, he was that guy who mhm. from everybody who didn't look at anything as competition. 

[00:05:00]He's like, let's bring him in. Let's explain it. I don't want them to have to figure it out the way we  had to figure it out, you know, so then I got to know everybody in the industry and then I go into pinnacle and then I created more of a community, more of a high performing culture environment, from a leadership perspective in pinnacle.

So I've always had this really neat, Yeah. path throughout my career and my journey that, it's just very consistent and always drawing back to the beginning. And I love to say, never forget where you come from.

Leo Judkins:  So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that kind of high performance culture and specifically about your kind of playing basketball against people that are much better, you know, stronger, faster. And I often think that resistance, right, that pressure, that kind of thing.

Yeah. that you've got to push through that, pushes you to perform at, at your peak, right? But very often as leaders, I think we make it easy for people who would try to help them because we want to be kind and we want to be nice, right? And we want to support people, but it's actually in the struggle where peak performance happens, in my mind anyway.

[00:06:00] So I'd love to hear from you if you feel that that's the same thing and how you, how you think about, you know, establishing a culture of high performance.

Paris Smith: you know, well, first of all, I think that high performance. You know, there's an evolution of the industry. 

So way when it was things like that. But the general business, you have a bunch of phone clerks, you train them. 

Yeah. I'm going into sports betting here before casino was even. as long as you showed up and you worked those long hours, because of course you had to start at nine in the morning and go till 11 or 12 at night. You know, everybody was giving beautiful lunches at work to encourage people to work 15 hours a day with no break. that's a culture of you want people to be dedicated and loyal, which is great. But then. The whole tide changed and everything became more competitive. 

[00:07:00]Everything became online and that's where, at the sale of a pinnacle to Magnus headman, I knew he wanted that high performing culture in order to. the value of the organization. So I think, having that ability for myself in particular.

I love crunch time. 3 seconds left. We need 3 points. Give me the ball. We're down by 2. I'm ready for it. And I find in my teams, the teams that I've connected with the most throughout my entire. 

It's 30 years this year career, the ones that have gone through either structural changes that maybe weren't executed in the right way by the ownership or board or, you know,  pinnacles had a couple difficult times with regard to when we pulled out of the U.S. market, then there was, some of the owners were implicated, not charged. 

So, you know, during those moments. It's, it's like, do we fall apart and go, oh my gosh, these guys are gone, what are we gonna do? Instead, for me, just innately, I'm like, you know what, there's a few things that we wanted to do that they weren't really keen.

[00:08:00]Let's get  them done, because I know they're gonna work. And let's continue to move forward. And that was actually when we got quite a nice bump in the organization. 

And things started going really well, leaner, stronger. after that moment, that's when we sold to Magnus Edmund. 

So that high performance leadership. is, that tough love and a lot of times, I found as my career progressed and I brought in higher quality experienced people, their tolerance for that tough love was much less, Oh, she's picking on me. She doesn't like me.

You know, being a woman leader, you've got, Oh, she's, she has favorites, you know, like I'm like a mom.

Whatever it might be, but the reality is my favorite people were the best performers. and my other big mantra is I want to set up people for success. And then there's when you have that your mind for that high performance, if somebody is not  following through or they're not, maybe not 100 percent capable of getting to the level that you need them, you see it more because you've basically done everything you can to set them up for success and it's not happening. 

[00:09:00]Not all jobs are for all people.

Leo Judkins:  And that's absolutely fine. Right. I think that's, I think that's one of the, one of the mistakes people make that they think it's the same. It's the same with promotions. There's often this idea in, in people's and organizations heads. That's that the only linear path for everybody is is, you know, managerial.

And that's, of course, not true. Not everybody is a manager. I think the other thing also that I love that you're saying there is. Just like in sports, it's about holding each other to a higher standard, right. And, and really requiring more and expect, especially expecting more from, from people.

Has that always been the case for you, When you were young, is that an upbringing thing? Like, how, how did that form itself over time? Yeah

Paris Smith: [00:10:00] I'm always the  overachiever. I always want to do the best. I won't say it was always like that because of course, throughout the journey, I went from having to do everything myself, and then all of a sudden you get really big and then you're like, Oh, I'm kind of dropping the ball.

Oh, and I'm actually not even qualified. Let me bring in qualified people so you go through that evolution, but, there were moments in my career looking back that I wished that I had, held people to a higher standard. 

And also like within cultures, we had a very competitive culture in Pinnacle. So sometimes somebody, you know, I would be a little concerned. Oh, I wonder if they're gonna make it. And then give them the tools, etc. But they were being bombarded and semi ambushed. So I wasn't sure if it was them or was it people that didn't like them within our team or within their culture. 

[00:11:00]So it was really just a case of trying to identify, at that moment, I would probably give too much  grace if I didn't have the extra noise. I would have seen it. And my gut was telling me, Oh boy, this is probably not the best hire I've ever had.

However, I gave them more grace because that competitive nature throughout the organization and culture was, , I say ambush sabotage. I mean, they're all pretty strong words, but

You know, Everybody wants to be that person that solves a big problem and gets the recognition. But the reality is. When you're working together and everybody's in the highest performance within their area That is the time that everything comes together and the success really starts to fulfill itself

Leo Judkins:  Love that. Hey Parris, let me just kind of dive into that area where you said, I wish I would have held people to a higher standard in certain cases, right? because I think what you're saying is totally normal. You look at someone and you see that they're not perhaps performing at their best. You kind of look at the circumstances.

[00:12:00] You think, ah, Yeah, maybe that's the case. Maybe that's happening or that's happening. Retrospectively, it's always easy to kind of judge yourself, I suppose, but what would you, what would be the advice that you'd give yourself now if you'd be able to talk to yourself in that same position with that same specific person?

How would you deal with it differently?

Paris Smith: Well, first I would block out the noise around me so I could make my own decision And then secondly, even like stronger KPIs That kind of tells the story, and a lot of my biggest errors, I think, or, things where I could have done much better was during COVID. 

Well, there, you can't even meet people, you're hiring them, then somebody's going through something traumatic or, they're having a different issue based on, some people couldn't handle being alone.

Some people thrive to be alone. All of those differences. But, just looking at it more so for what it is and blocking out the noise, I definitely would have been able to make those decisions earlier and more accurately sooner.

Leo Judkins: [00:13:00] Yeah. It's so difficult sometimes though, when you're in the middle of it, when you're down that rabbit hole and all the noise is happening around you, it's just so hard to clearly see what's going on. 

So I completely get that. I want to talk a little bit about challenges, if that's okay for you. So one of the big things I always feel is that challenges really shape, you know, our reality. 

They make us grow so much far more than our successes. And you talked about one of your biggest challenges being, on the front page of the New York Times.

A significant challenge, obviously. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that and how you navigated that level of public scrutiny personally as well as professionally.

Paris Smith: Yeah. You know, the first part of that is why, right? Why did that come out? It was prior to, PASPA being repealed. It's very clear. People were very nervous. Like what if it is repealed and pinnacle would try to come into the market.

[00:14:00] Clearly, we're the market leader. And, there was also a lot of things going on with the allegations against the previous owners and they were fighting it. You know, not everybody loves that fight. And then, out of the blue, here comes this smear campaign is what I'd really like to call it. The first part that's frustrating is the context, they contacted us and they were like, you have your servers in America. 

We're like, no, we don't. no way we have servers. And we allow people to look at the web page because otherwise they're going to scrape us to death so we allow it to look, but you can't log in.

You can't make a bet. We did everything we're supposed to, but the way they turn the context of not just that, but many, many things, of course, if you don't understand, which the majority of people don't, it's like, oh, my God, those horrible people. 

So we've had to defend. All of those different things for years and years.

They're still haunting me today, personally, but I think, through that and, you know, at that moment, you have to block out the noise and forward. 

[00:15:00]1, it does a check and  balance of where are you at and, and getting that narrative, you know, clear internally.

Because, in the same way, a lot of people didn't understand it. Some of the staff are like, well, is anything they're saying? And they're true. It's the New York Times.

We were able to to get through it. And again. I think what they wanted to accomplish, they completely accomplished. It's been a little black mark we've had to stumble through. You try to get banking and, 

Oh, we saw this article in the New York times. And it is what it is. It's part of gaming, but it's also part of being at the top of your game.

Paris Smith: Shortly after they had other smear campaigns against other companies, and they went after DraftKings, and they went after BetChris, so if you look at it holistically, it's like, well, at least, we know that they're nervous about right?

[00:16:00] And that the brand of pinnacle was, I think, extremely intimidating to the opening of the U. S. market.  people did many things in the 11th hour throwing in. And if you operated offshore, you can't have a license ever. And it's like, you know what?

You got what you wanted.

You had a substandard product for the beginning of this now, you've allowed the monopoly because of the substandard product and the U. S. market. Really? I think it could be so much more. I mean, they're, they're thriving. Give them that. But, it's just a bit shameful that, the way to get ahead is to push somebody down.

Leo Judkins:  Absolutely agree. So, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that affected you personally, Paris, if you, if you're happy to talk about it, because that, like, you're not a robot, right? That's gonna, that's gonna really affect you, how you feel, how you deal with it, how you push through it.

Perhaps you drown it out completely, but I'd love to hear how you, how you dealt with that level of, Pressure and, you know, noise and, and all of that happening at the same time.

Paris Smith: [00:17:00] When I left WWTS and came to Pinnacle, I knew  that to me it was a powerhouse. And I'd hope that I could make it a bigger powerhouse.

So that level of scrutiny, that's fine. know I'm in gaming. Right. But I think the biggest challenge is the evolution of the industry. How, from the beginning, if everybody thought from day one, if I do this, I could get some. Situation from the U. S. Government. wouldn't have done it because at that moment there were a million loopholes as is today.

Sweepstakes is thriving. I love that for them. But it's there's there were so many loopholes. The big stick was you cannot take a bet in the U. S. That was a standard. Everybody knew it. All the legal opinions stated that. So what do you do? You come offshore. You get a license, right? Antigua at that time where I was at said, you can be here and operate and then it got too big.

[00:18:00] People were doing TV interviews and then, the U S government thought, Hmm, let's try to put a hammer on this. Let's try to slow it down instead of regulate it and then it shifted away to now companies become public and they had no clue what was happening offshore.

They're not a clue. And the only way they, the only clue they had was looking at an annual report for a publicly listed company and 90 percent of the indictments are 80 percent cut and paste from the annual report. 

Okay, you guys are fantastic detectives. Anyway, but so, as something as a hammer flies down, then, you know, okay. Oh, now the, the, the goalpost has changed, but I think sometimes today people are so delusional to think that we knew from day one what we did was going to get the consequences that came from the changing of the goalpost that's where the  resilience, I'm, I'm extremely resilient.

[00:19:00] I also have a lot of phenomenal support from my family and my friends . So no matter. What the situation was, you know, people would, they knew me, they knew, I didn't launder 700 million worth of money with the handle of the company. Like, you know, some of the things were, were completely, ridiculous.

So, just having that support throughout the years. That's what's made me most resilient. But in itself, the industry is extremely resilient. And, people talk about the passion that people have in this industry, you know, when people are like, Oh, I've only been, you know, I've been in for 2 years.

I'm like, you're not going anywhere. You know? I've had beautiful job offers outside of it. I can't. I love the people. I love the challenges. You know, I love challenges anything that's complicated. I want to fix it. So, yeah. I definitely found my home in the gaming space.

Leo Judkins:[00:20:00] And the pace as well, right? I think that's something that's really around you too. What you were saying with like a few minutes on the clock, you know, that idea of pace and short deadlines. So typical. 

Paris Smith: and the change of pace and even just the business within itself, right? Because we've had payment catastrophes, we've had telecommunication technology catastrophes, DOS attack catastrophes, it's such a dynamic industry. It's not some companies now, yeah, they're technology companies, but you still have to have your marketing.

You have to have your legal, your compliance, your, trading, your risk management, your, fraud detection. Like, it's, it's such a. Dynamic exciting

Leo Judkins:[00:21:00] Yeah. Love it. Hey, Paris, one of the things that you just said was around how you've got really strong resilience and a big part of that is family and friends, right? And I think that's so true for most people that have great resilience is because They have a group to lean on and to offload and to, you know, to just put things in perspective.

And so how have you dealt with that? Because I think that's one of the, you know, for expats especially, what I see a lot is that they lose that network and then they perhaps only find a network that's just inside of their own company.

What are some of the things that you've done to help with that, if anything?

Paris Smith: Well, first of all, I've not moved around a lot. I have had two jobs. The first one was 11 years in Antigua, and one is was 17 years in Curacao.

The interesting thing about Curacao. You know, I never had the European expat. I've always been the Caribbean expat. There's something extremely special about Antigua and Curacao, where the expat community,  they aren't friends, their family, and it's really beautiful.

[00:22:00] Like, I've known people literally for 30 years that have, Even if some of them are out of the industry, a lot of them are in the industry, we're all kids going partying hanging out on, from 1230 at night when we finished work till, you know, 5 in the morning, you got to go back to work at 9, we had that cycle and then we all had got married.

We had kids and then, the big parties are the kids birthday parties we've included alcohol for a 2 year olds birthday party for all of our friends to enjoy. So the people that I've met throughout, I mean, I've had, I have an amazing base from my childhood and my college years, but then, like, my family base in Antigua is amazing.

[00:23:00]I have friends that I absolutely love and adore and they're my closest friends and then my, Curacao community sometimes when my friends do come visit from the States, they're like, Oh,  my God, how do you find these people? And it's just like that energy both Antigua and Curacao, but most recently in Curacao.

So it's I just somehow find the most phenomenal people .

Leo Judkins: Important to find, right?  love to talk a little bit about what you do today and especially the changes from, fast growth, big organization to now smaller advisory, you must see so many different environments nowadays, must be quite exciting, but What are some of the things that you're noticing from that, from those different environments, from the kind of startup scene , helping out, yeah. .

What are some of the trends that you're noticing in iGaming? 

Paris Smith: Some of the trends are leadership challenges. That's something that is becoming very clear, like you'd mentioned earlier, sometimes the strongest developer, you know, it's like, God, he's amazing. He gets everything out on time. Let's put him in charge. He doesn't want to be in charge.

[00:24:00] He wants to code, but we give it to them. know, in defense of them, they're being offered more  money. There's less coding time, more people time. It sounds good. And then when the reality starts setting in, it's more challenging. 

Another change that's very evident after COVID. Everything was about people. I mean, the travel costs were phenomenal for everybody. 

Everybody needs to go and give a hug to the person they have never met before. And they hadn't met him for 15 years before. So that was interesting, but, everybody has to see each other, touch each other, make sure they're okay. and then the costs sort, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, so the, the business bounce back. 

But we're not making as much money because the costs are so and it happened in every industry across Every area, not just gaming, profitability and of many, many times the idea or the, the, the solution is to cut  people. and that's a great business decision. 

[00:25:00] Profitability is king. You're not here to make friends. You're here to make money. It's one of my little mantras when I was being a bit of a jerk, but it's a fact. but there is a way. Right. And there is transitioning times.

There was a company in Canada that made a massive shift and they realized that what they were doing just was not going to work anymore. And instead of just laying people off, they actually had a meeting. Explain to everybody. 

This is where we were. is why it's not working. And this is what we need to do. These are the teams that are going to be impacted. It has nothing to do with your quality of the service that you've provided to us, and we're going to try to help you find a job. To me, that was the most professional, mature, move. 

[00:26:00] That I had ever seen, and I believe that they placed the majority of their people and and the way in which  it was done. Other people get an email. Some people, you know, it's like, Hey, how are you doing today? Yeah, no, we're going to close this in a couple days here. So, yeah, but thanks. You did great.

So there has to be a shift at some point. And I do believe that it goes to have many skills, many qualities. Sometimes, tough stuff, if you will, or maybe the non profitability type things aren't in their wheelhouse. And rather than just trying to drop a hammer, like, maybe get more strategic, I think could could benefit a lot of companies in that regard. 

Leo Judkins:  one of the things that you're saying there, which is so crucial, is just that person ability and authenticity realizing that you're dealing with people. And yes, of course, we're optimizing for profits because without profit, the business is just not there. But that doesn't mean that you've got to be a robot about, how you go  about business.

[00:27:00] Right. And I think that's one of the big things that, often larger organizations struggle with where, you know, there's an email that goes out, goes into spam and somebody turns up and the role is no longer longer day, you know, like what?

Paris Smith: Yeah, But then the other thing is where you have those different management tiers that aren't equipped. So, you know, they're not coaching it in a way that would make somebody understand. And instead of. to help somebody understand why things are happening, it's easier for them, and it's kind of the default where you diminish that person, so they're like, Oh, my God, you know, they're not happy with me.

I'm not doing a good job because they don't know how to say, know how to utilize you. but instead of saying that, it's like, well, you know, you're just not up for it. Well, yeah, well, we've had a lot of complaints about you. All these, you know, ambiguous comments that really diminish somebody's character. 

[00:28:00] And I feel like, you know, when I consult a lot of people. I'm a mentor to a lot of people. And I'm always like, if you've been there for 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, What you did has value. Do not let anybody diminish that you showed up. You did your best. You took training.

You grew. When things were bad, you were there to help support. You need to take that to your next role and not allow anybody to pull you down from what you deserve.\

Many times people get a job where they're much happier anyway.

Leo Judkins:  In the moment, it's horrible, but usually it ends up to be a blessing, right? 

[00:29:00] So, so you've been in the industry for 30 years. Think about three types of people, the people that don't last, that burn out or just don't make it. The people that stagnate. and the people that really thrive. 

If you think about those three groups, what do you think underpins like some of the behaviors or habits or skills or mindsets that each of those three people has?

Paris Smith: it's a lot of the personality, right? So I feel like the people that, have to get out and they don't survive, they don't listen because,  you always have a team unless you're the one man band. And, and I find even when I've had moments where I was going downhill a bit, I wasn't listening.

[00:30:00]Right. you're paying people. They care. Listen to what they have to say. Those people that fail aren't listening. And they think they're always right. So that's that category. 

And then the ones that are stagnant, they're so busy sitting in the success of the moment and they're comfortable in that they're not you know, like I always felt like I had a duty to my shareholders and a duty to the team to grow. 

So people that are like, you know what? We're good where we are. You know, why do more? Why They're just never, they can't succeed. And the reality is with that evolution of our industry, that stagnancy just drops down. It's not like you can ride the wave you know, the calm waters don't exist. 

[00:31:00] So either you, get with it, or you probably need to get  out. That's where you see a lot of acquisitions as well. Right? and then the ones that thrive. Yeah. they're the ones, I feel like, they're thought leaders, they listen to what's out there, they're aware of everything, they can admit when they're wrong. 

That's a huge, to me, that's like, accountability, is such a basic fundamental that is so non existent. It's never anybody's fault. You know, the finger pointing game. and I feel like those leaders will take that accountability and pivot and shift whenever they have to to continue to thrive. 

That's the golden ticket right there. 

Leo Judkins:  Own accountability as well, because I remember it in the good old poker days, you know, anything you touch would just turn into gold, right? 

Because it was so easy. Everything was so easy. And the market was growing so quickly. And that's, of course, no longer the case for most businesses, I suppose today, and it kind of goes back to the start of our conversation, right?

[00:32:00] Where,  Okay, put the challenges in front of you and push through those challenges. And  that is what makes most people thrive. And that's how you get away from being stagnant.

Paris Smith: Well, when you were asking the question, I thought you were going to ask, like, what are the categories of people that become successful? And I would say back in the day, luck, like, oh, my goodness. 

You know, I look at the kind of retrospective of the people that started that were hugely successful. You know, you basically showed up for work and turned on your computers and to make money. You know, that's it was almost that good to now with these startups like the guys that were back then, they wouldn't have been able to survive in this startup work.

Is a lot. And these are really bright people. And right now, when I see a lot, as you've mentioned, and sometimes I see people that have beautiful ideas that could be a product, but not a company.

[00:33:00]I'm really here to help Transcribed People understand where they fit with that, or how do  you create more than what your original idea is to have that, business, if you will. there's so much out there, you know, there's probably a lot of room and opportunity for collaboration

this and. That ecosystem of startups that's starting to come on strong, will allow for those conversations and ideas permeating

Leo Judkins:  Love it.  Jordan, who, Jordan Erasmus, who's in our mastermind, he had a question for you as well. He said, with your vast experience in iGaming, what do you see as the biggest untapped opportunities for operators today?

Paris Smith: I think that there is something out there in a way of a user experience, I mean right now the focus for user experience products has been the highest margin product for a sports book.

[00:34:00] Right. What if there's a product that is actually helping people? they help make a better choice, by using data, but you know,  like there's just got to be something out there that makes it better user experience that doesn't, try to bleed, bleed them. And it's like buying a lottery ticket, not placing a bet. There needs to be something like that at some stage.

And that's an untapped area. I think, the same game parlays. Yeah. that's such an excitement for everybody. But I mean, it only went bad. I think one month because all the favorites one. 

But beyond that, it's such a money grab. It's almost embarrassing, know, back in the 30 years ago. No sports book would feel good about that. They would feel like they're robbing

So now you're talking about the evolution the industry. but again, there's nothing wrong with having that transition because that's the response to the expenses and getting into regulated markets.

Leo Judkins: [00:35:00] Also that a lot of that is because of the short term vision that most businesses have gaming, right? As a result  of, ever changing regulations, so you never know how long you're going to be able to do the same thing for a prolonged amount of time. There's always short term revenue to be met.

And as and a high focus on acquisition. So as a result of that, things are, rarely really optimized for lifetime value, but more for instant value, right? So it's more high margin products rather than actual, player experience. I think that's one of the key issues that most operators probably struggle with.

ow do you see that Paris? I just kind of off the cuff as well. It's just kind of what I'm thinking as you're talking about 

Paris Smith: love that. I actually had a huge discussion yesterday about responsible gaming even within W. W. T. S. and within pinnacle, we never were like, let's get everything we can when we can. That's not the point. The 1st problem is, what is the definition for. Addictive gambling, right?

So, if I'm worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and I want to bet 20 million a year in betting, do I have a problem? not. 

[00:36:00] So sometimes people think big bets, large bets, that's a problem gambler. of all, the definition has to be. More clear. The second problem is exactly what you were saying. How acquisition is important. People have to hit market numbers if you're publicly listed,

Usually the case in the U. S. market. So they have to keep their share price up and make money and get those high holds in order to pay those high expensive for the regulatory fees that they have to pay and all the other data, right?

Fees, etcetera. And in the meantime, everybody's like, well, they're encouraging people to spend more. Of course they are. And the reality is, this has been the land based situation forever. I know the, the big, Debate is well, it's online. It's on your phone. It's the same thing. You walk into the casino.

Your VIP host is chasing you around trying to make sure that you're going to lose the maximum money you can lose.

[00:37:00] So  the 1 question I have that I think would be super interesting is if the regulators truly wanted the responsible gaming and wanted to look out for the players, could reward those organizations that are it. Not doing the, Hey, you know, Johnny, it looks like, you know, like you've got 200 for the weekend. You know, if you send a thousand, we'll give you a thousand, whatever. I don't even know what

I'm not a fan of bonuses anyway, but,  you know, and trying to feed that behavior, gambling and that is what the marketing and VIP role is.

So if you get a better balance, And it would just take tons of data, and nobody wants to provide data for this, which is what the conversation was. but if a company, DraftKings, BetMGM, FanDuel, rewarded creating true, authentic, responsible gaming, mechanics within their organizations. 

[00:38:00] I really think that it's, it's so conflicting. and then all the onus of all the costs for the responsible gaming, okay, so you have to get numbers for the street and you have to do all these different things and try to be a profitable company and then you have to add another 40, 50, 100 people for responsible gaming because the regulators are, you know, focusing on that, not understanding it, not even understanding the definition. 

So it's all very. Disjointed and I just feel like at some point in time, all the lobbyists that have their interests of their individual companies, the information that's being provided to the regulators is so. Agenda driven, they're not even able to make the right decisions and just how it works, apparently.

[00:39:00] So, you know, it's going to be what it is, but at some stage, it would be really interesting if there was an authentic  approach that actually encouraged and had a financial impact positively for those organizations that have spent of dollars trying to play the cat and mouse

Leo Judkins:  Carrots not stick. I like it.  Paris, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the people that inspired you the most in your journey. 

You, there's so many people that really look up to you, rightfully so. I'd love to hear it from the other way around. Like what are some of the people that have inspired you the most? what have they done to inspire you?

Paris Smith: Yeah. There's just so many, you know,  from a resilience perspective, Billy Walters, I've actually, he was the first person I took a phone call from when I was a clerk 30 years ago. and just the way, like the way in which he moved. he always had his beards and, you know, they never knew each other.

[00:40:00] He just had such a system that was phenomenal. I love that. And then what he's gone through, our stories are very similar. You get.  Too powerful. You get too successful and everybody wants to rip you down. 

And you know, the government's chasing you down. there was never anything against being a better, but they kept going after him. 

So in the end, when they found a little opportunity, they just pounced on it. And it was, I believe, of course, I'm a super fan. So it was really unfair, but his resilience and how he takes it. every opportunity. You know, when he went to,  he had to serve time and he started a jail reform project.

Like this guy is beyond a phenomenal person, right? He's just a beautiful person. so he inspires

And then,  like I said, there's a lot, you know, Sue Schneider has always inspired me she started the whole, conference, could talk to each other, and started the community of gaming, knowing each other, and she's also a huge advocate for policies and regulation and, we're, sometimes on the opposite end of the spectr but  still a very large compliment. 

[00:41:00] So to be able to have my next chapter, being a co founder with her and Kelly Keene is such a luxury. I absolutely love it. She's such a selfless person. and then, talking with Sue the other day, and she was talking about a mutual friend, Ruth Parasol. 

Biggest that could have should have happened was WWTS. was,  English Harbor Casino and Party Gaming. And I'm going so far back in the early 2000s. And it's when WWTS was acquired by an Australian group. the valuations were, I don't remember the numbers, but the top dog was WWTS. 

[00:42:00] And then it was, English Harbor and then Party Gaming that in the midst of all this negotiation, Party Gaming did a,  the big million dollar boat cruise from that moment, they just skyrocketed and  that was a good number, what I respect so much about Ruth Parasol, she's like, I'm not doing it, we're not doing it, and they just walked away.

So I have so much respect, and then guess who's the right? And it's, it's so interesting because I've never felt like I can't believe she did that. I've always felt like good for her a smart business woman.

So I've always admired her. And, and, you know, she's inspired me for that. And she just, she grew that and she grew it in a way that she knew where. Her strength was so she knew where she had to add.

So I admire her a lot for that. And she's so inspirational.

Leo Judkins: [00:43:00] Love it.  Love it. Thank you very much. Paris.  very last question to you. when you think about the people that you work with and you advise now, what is, what is maybe the biggest thing that they, I'm missing the blind spot that they have. 

The thing that they don't see that if they would, you know, just do more of that, they would be so much more successful.

Paris Smith: That's a great question. There's a couple things. One is believing in themselves. The second thing is understanding where they fit in the ecosystem of the industry. A lot of people are like, oh, this is nobody else has this. This is brand new. And I'm like, okay, I'm not going to run around and do your competitive analysis, but you need to.

[00:44:00] Because it's So I think, you know, not being stuck in their idea of what they want to do and really look at what is required, needed and  solving a problem in the industry. know, if people did more of that, they would start elevating. 

And to be honest with you, I do have quite a few groups that are that way. look for hungry, humble, smart and passionate and that humble. 

Listening and being able to pivot, and then sometimes when I'm speaking with them, they're like, I know I'm pivoting again. I'm like, that's not bad you've got new data. You've got new information and things have shifted.

So you need to pivot or you're going to be that stagnant operator that we were talking about earlier and never get anywhere.

Leo Judkins:  Yeah. Most people I speak to, they always talk about that curiosity is probably one of the most underrated, you know, identity pieces that people lack or have and are super important just to, just to understand that.

Thank you very much, Paris. It's been amazing talking to you. Thanks for the coming on the podcast.

Paris Smith:[00:45:00] I've loved it. I'm really grateful for being here. Thanks so much.