Podcast Episode 7: From Burnout to High Performance in iGaming | Leadership Podcast

  📍 📍 📍 I was just driving on, on, on this feeling of success and just working harder and building bigger and going and going And then that for me resulted in last summer into having a mini stroke in my brain

by giving them even more responsibilities in their own areas and allowing them to step up and show that what they can do. I really noticed the company was doing far better even than before when I was trying to do it all on my own.

a company is not about duplicating yourself. Uh, that's the totally wrong way of doing it because there's only one of you to start with.

I'm the owner of the company, so I have to, uh, to work 80 hours a week, otherwise, the company is not, uh, succeeding.

Well, if the company is not succeeding

and you are, uh,

working 80 hours a week, then the company is not succeeding because you are working 80 hours a week.

  📍

Welcome to the I gaming leader, where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders inside of our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins. And today I'm joined by Mike de Graaff, who is the chief compliance officer at bet compliant. At only 33 years old, he had a heart shattering moment where after having just had his kid, he suffered a stroke. He will share with us exactly what led to that specific moment. And what he has done since to maintain a high performance lifestyle while managing his performance, his team. And his own wellbeing with that being said, let's dive straight in.

  📍 📍 Hey, Mike. Welcome to the iGaming Leader. Really great to have you here. I've been really wanting to talk to you for quite some time because something I recently saw from you on LinkedIn, but First, just let me say welcome. Hi.

Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Cool. Hey, Mike, you started, um, in gaming in 2015,  been in the industry for quite a bit, like, one of the things I noticed from your kind of going through your LinkedIn is that you quickly rose to a team leader position, um, like many of us, I suppose, in gaming, move through the ranks, uh, quickly.

I'm just curious what drove that rapid progression and and looking back, what are some of the things that you wish you knew back then when you first kind of moved into that team leader position? 

correctly stated I started in 2015 in customer service. Um, back when I moved to Malta, I already had a number of years in the contact center industry from the healthcare industry. Eso  I was in traffic management and team leader positions there. But I realized also this is a new industry, so I was willing to go learn it on the front line. So starting CS, I did that for a few months and then the opportunity came to, uh, become a team leader there before I rose into payment risk and compliance. One of the things that throughout my career always is a constant is. Growth and that's at speed. Uh, and, uh, I tend to nail that down to two things.

So I am.  I am ADHD quite, quite heavily also, but I'm diagnosed ADHD and high intelligence, which is a combination that is deadly in school. But if you find something that you're really passionate about or that you like to do, it creates big advantages. I soak up information like no other. And I also work harder like no other.

Yeah.

  that team leader position, then Mike, what's, um, what But what were your first impressions of gaming that, that must've been, I mean, it's quite a, you were at excess for all, I'm also Dutch. So I kind of know what the company might be like. 

Um, what was that, how was that transition? Like from moving from more of a, you know, a big operator like that, like excess role to something to gaming where, you know, which was rather small when you first started. Right.

Yes. Yes. It was rather small. It was a totally,  it was a really change of culture actually. So I came from corporate in the Netherlands, like big office, roles and badges and all that kind of stuff. And then we went into 2015 iGaming. So for those who know what 2015 iGaming is, these are, if you're speaking about Malta, you're talking converted flats into offices, bunch of youngsters trying to do a good job. And then in terms of the customers and the industry itself, I found it very exciting because there was a lot going on always. But what I immediately noticed when I went into iGaming, Team lead positions and CS was also the complaints and the disputes, problem gambling and criminal activity. So that's when you get a really, really sense on the front lines of what is happening when it, when players play on gambling websites, which was totally new to me.

Yeah. Uh, you, you, uh,  so being Dutch, right? One of the things I also seen you say before is that you have this, uh, blunt dutchy in you are the blood dutchy in compliance, right? And, um, having,  having that background myself as well, I know sometimes we rub people up the wrong way because we, maybe we are a little bit too direct.

And sometimes it goes really well as well, right?  do you have any specific examples where perhaps that's either helped you or really kind of, uh, been a disadvantage for you in, in that, you know, having that directness in a multicultural organization.

So, well, where did it help me was initially with complaints, disputes, and refunds. I was in charge of that for the whole department and, uh,  yeah, when someone is actually complaining or in a desperate situation or anything like that, being blunt to them doesn't help because you need to acknowledge their emotions and go into their story and really investigate and just say, Sorry, in terms of conditions, it's not really gonna be helpful in that sense.

So I really learned a lot in terms of soft skills and writing skills with being in charge of complaints and disputes over there. So that's where it didn't help me. Where it does help me is in what I've been doing for the last few years, which is compliance consultancy.

So compliance is a very wide term.

It encompasses a lot. Anything from responsible gaming and anti money laundering to outsourcing and integrity and payments and HR and internal monitoring. There's a whole wide range. And there's also a whole wide range of interpretations and ways of doing it. And especially if you're in consultancy, they come to you for the answer.

Like, hey, my marketing team is saying this. My legal team is saying that. My commercial team is saying this. What do I need to do and how do I need to do it? So they're looking for a straightforward and blunt answer. Um, so that's where it really helps in getting the message across, explaining things. And it also helps if you're on an hourly rate that you're, you know, fast in your answering.

Do you,  do you notice that you're changing your approach and how you kind of communicate, or is that, you know, that's just Mike, that's just what you're going to get.

Yeah, but mostly the latter.

Uh, you know, uh, been doing this for a number of years.  The people that we work with, they know what they can expect from us, which is straightforward business and straightforward talk and nonsense, which, which helps them. Um, so it's mostly the latter.

Uh, I do have to make, give the warning or the heads up up front when we're coming with new clients or new, new partners.

So I do give them the caveat, hey. I am Dutch, meaning I am very punctual, I'm never late, and two, I'm very blunt and no filter, but it's, uh, it's only for the better. It's never to be disrespectful or anything like

No, No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.  Hey, 2020, right? You made a big jump into consultancy and, um, during the pandemic. That's a big move, right? So I kind of did the same thing. I resigned from a directorship at 20. I know how scary that was because it was scary turbulent time. And it's, it's, it's a big move. So what's, compelled you to make such a bold decision in such an uncertain time?

market was calling for me, basically. Um,  so I was working in house back then as a risk and compliance manager and 2019 2020 is when the Netherlands started to work towards opening of the market because it opened up in, in, uh, in 21, but in, uh, in 20, I was already receiving calls and emails and LinkedIn requests from a lot of different parties saying, Hey, The market is opening in the Netherlands.

There's not many, uh, Dutch speaking compliance experts out there. Can you help us out with, with the compliance framework or the license application or the policies, et cetera. And I was in house and I, and I was like, well, I can continue doing my work as I've been doing because I was happy there. Uh, but the company itself did not have any plans to enter the market.

And I was like, well, if I'm the only one of the very few Dutch speaking compliance experts on this island, and everyone is calling me asking to work for them, why don't I just go on my own

and do it because As you said, it was also COVID time, so we were already on lockdown overall. I couldn't really go out and do anything other than doing work.

And my wife is a, is a chef. She was also at work or at home because it was a COVID lockdown. So we made a conscious decision to go into consultancy, do several projects at the same time and go full force. Uh, you know, couldn't do anything else other than then sitting at home and working.  So, uh, I took the opportunity.

yeah. How did that feel? Were you scared? Was it a big decision? How, like, talk me through kind of the process of actually doing that. Yeah.

Um,  I have to go back a little bit on that because it goes back to the nature of the beast, which is, which is my personality in the way that I approach things. I, uh, I tend to box above my weight as I call it, uh, where I'm very comfortable. Uh, so I've been doing that for all my life. Uh, meaning that, uh, I have this thinking in, uh, uh, thinking process that says it.

I have never done it, but I think I can do it, so I'll do it. Uh, and up until now, I've been able to do it and do it properly. So I go into some things knowing that I do not know everything, but I'm confident enough that I'm resourceful enough to find out how it should be done and, and then executed accordingly. So it's a little bit of sometimes overconfidence, but up until now, it has proven proven me right. 

So, so you're a dad, um, moving in a fast paced industry. You're an expat, right? All of these things at the same time, sometimes it's a very challenging, right? It's kind of finding, finding balance and balancing family life, but also being in this, Kind of 24 seven industry that is fast paced and high pressure.

How do you balance all of that?

Uh, yeah, uh,  I was not always very good at this. So after COVID, when, uh, everything started opening up again, I was in consultancy in an open industry. And with open industry, I mean all the industry events or the conferences or the travel every as a consultant, you need to be everywhere, right?

You need to be everywhere to be seen to talk to clients, talk to new leads, partake in panels, do a lot of working. Um, so when. COVID came to an end and I started traveling again to all these conferences once a month, doing all this work, uh, also having babies along the way. Um, I, I went too far, uh, you know, because I, I, I really enjoy what I'm doing and I'm really passionate about what I'm doing. Uh, but I was also under the impression that I was young and indestructible. Uh, so I was just driving on, on, on this feeling of success and just working harder and building bigger and going and going And then that for me resulted in last summer into having a mini stroke in my brain because I overdid it in full. So yeah, I was not very good at this. I I took a real hard look a real good look at myself in the way that I've been been doing new things and I realized that If you want to build, you know as a consultant on your own you're doing your own work your own sales and you execute yourself There's a very different from building a company which we are doing with that comply

having that mini stroke in the summer forced me to go back to the drawing board and say, Okay, what is it that I am doing personally?

What is it is that the team is doing? Where did it go wrong in terms of me overdoing it? And how do we not do that anymore? So I was I was not good. So to summarize, I was not good at this at all. I was forced to look into it. Uh, you know, reasons. Um, and now I, I tend, I like to think that I am getting good at it.

So,  I mean, you were only 33, maybe still are 33 because it was this summer, uh, when that happened, that's really scary. Right. So what was that, what was that day? Like what, what actually, what was going through your mind that day? And how, how, how did that, like, how did it appear?

So it was a day like no other. I was working from the office where I am right now.

Um,

I was just working behind my desk.

I started that my,

I started to notice that my arm was feeling a bit numb.

And I was like, Oh, maybe I'm not sitting correctly or something. You have that sometimes, right? You're sitting at a desk and maybe your leg or your arm could get sleepy or numb. So I was like, Oh, that's weird. Let me, uh, let me stand up.  And then, so I, I,

I tried to stand up and

I noticed that

my whole leg was also fully numb and I could not stand on it.

So I was like, Oh, this is weird. Maybe I need to walk it off. Right? So I just, I walked up to the kitchen to to grab coffee. Notice that my whole right side was just not functioning. Um, and I tried to explain that.

And as soon as I tried to explain that,

I noticed that

I couldn't talk anymore. I could not finish any sentence, could not find any words.

So it was all the classic symptoms, right? Uh, and then I also know that my whole face on the right side went numb as well. So I had all the classic symptoms, full of one side of my body, fully numb, out of, out of power, no strength, uh, full loss of speech.

Okay. Me being the workaholic that I am, instead of calling 112, I called our operations director, asking her like, hey, it's basically notifying her saying, I cannot really continue work today because I don't feel well. But if you're having a stroke, you cannot explain that either. So I was on the phone blabbing like, like this, and she got scared. So, to be as heavy as they as they are. I thought it was just some some stress relief or whatever. I didn't realize it was a stroke until I actually went to the hospital and they told me you had a stroke and you basically almost died. You should have come here immediately and not, you know, after after some time. Um, so on the day itself, I didn't realize it as much. But when the doctor started talking to me and investigating me and doing my brain scans and my heart scans and all that stuff, then I started realizing how serious this actually is. Because

I'm 33. I'm young. And I was going for cardiac appointments and brain scan appointments in waiting rooms full of 70, 80 year old people that were looking at me like, what are you doing here?

And that's when I started to realize, like, yeah, what am I doing? This is not normal. I should not be here. This is not okay. Right. I went way too far with this. Um, and it was also, I had the stroke in the week that my son was born. Uh, so it also took away, I don't want to say it took away the joy of it.

Cause I still experienced a lot of joy, but in the background of my head, I was still like, I, I almost, okay. Died last week, uh, uh, so I had that in the back of my mind, uh, while we were having, um, a third son. Uh, well because of the labor, we, I also had my two weeks of paternity leave, of course.

So I had also forced paternity leave by coincidentally, 'cause I needed at rest. Um, and then in those two weeks I really started thinking, okay, how do I, how do I structure this out so it doesn't happen again anymore? Um, and from the moment that I came back, also during my paternity leave, I really went back to a very strict diet, a very strict sleep schedule, very strict work schedule. So a lot of us in the industry, especially people my age, we go way too, way too, way too hard, right? We don't do schedules, we sleep whenever we're tired, we work when work needs to be done. We party, we network, we travel. And I, I really needed to go back to, I'm in bed by 9:00 PM I work from eight till four. Uh, I don't drink only during travel. Uh, uh, I don't work after 4:00 PM anymore, meaning I really need to log off. I can do maybe a phone call or one, one or two, but no more work. Um, and I found out by doing that, uh, and by enabling our operations director and the other consultant. Step up and take responsibility further than what they were doing. I noticed how good our team is. I already know. I already knew our team is good. That's why we gather that team as is.  But by giving them even more responsibilities in their own areas and allowing them to step up and show that what they can do. I really noticed the company was doing far better even than before when I was trying to do it all on my own.

That's awesome, man. That is what a fantastic results out of a really bad situation, right?

  📍 📍 Hey, quick pause here, because I know you can probably relate to some of the things Mike saying around the insane pressure that we put ourselves on the, maybe you're compromising on your own health and wellbeing as well, just in order to, 📍 meet that next deadline, or to perform a little bit better. But we all know that that's not sustainable.

So if you're a VP director head of, or C-level exec and you want to create sustainable high performance building habits. And behaviors that you can practice in just 20 minutes a day. Please join us in the eye gaming leader. Mastermind. It's a community of gaming leaders, just like you, where we help you live, lead and perform at your best. In a way that you can actually achieve that sustainable high-performance.

Now, if you wanna apply it, please head over to gaming leader.com and fill in your details. Let's go back to Mike.

Marker

So,   📍 so how was that Mike? When, when, so  when the doctor started talking to you and started explaining that it was actually a stroke, you probably didn't even believe it, right? Because you were thinking, Oh, well, I'm in this, like you were saying, I'm indestructible.

when did you, when did you,  when did you notice that it's kind of a consequence of perhaps the things that you were doing? the high stress levels, the lack of sleep, all those things that you, like, how did that process go? Did the doctor tell you that? Or did you have to figure that out? Were there any warning signs beforehand that you, that you might've missed or that you just kind of suppressed?  

Um, well I did suppress some signs, uh, in the six months leading up to the stroke, I was losing weight. Uh, no, I'm not overweight by any means, but I was losing like a kilo a month on average. Uh, so I didn't  see it as an indicator of that. I was just like, yeah, sometimes you lose weight, sometimes you gain. Uh, so I had that, uh, The fact that the fact that I was not sleeping well, I was blaming that on having small kids and being pregnant again. so I was just just telling myself it was other things or justifying it in the back of my head, right? Because I was in the middle of growing, growing, this compliance consultancy firm, which was going amazing.

And I could not have anything tarnished that, right? It couldn't, that could not be the issue. Everything else is the issue. Maybe not that. Because everything depends on it. so I did it, took the signs, uh, uh, as they were. Uh, and then when it all happened, I also, when it actually happened, I didn't realize it was a stroke.

Uh, when I was in the hospital, I realized it was a stroke, but I still was not realizing where it actually came from. Until the doctor started questioning me, Uh, do you use drugs or anything? Do you, you know, anything, anything to explain what happened?

Because I'm 33,

I have no pre existing conditions, no terminal diseases of any kind. So there's not many reasons why I should be having a brain stroke, right? Uh, and you know, one of the things that that contribute to having a brain stroke is, is high cholesterol and bad diet, but I was not overweight of any means, uh, things like that. Uh, or, or, or overuse of, of, of drugs, uh, performance enhancing drugs or anything like that also is an indicator. So I, as they started questioning me about this and I was like, I don't do drugs. I don't do any drugs, I don't do anything, whatever. So then they said, how was your stress level? I was like, well, that's a discussion on its own.

Yeah, and then I started explaining how my, my, my day to day is and my responsibilities, et cetera. And then I started explaining it to them.  And then they said, well, no wonder you got a stroke. I said, you better change that right now or you're going to have another one. And so, and they made that very clear. That if I continue down this road, it would end in, you know, me dying. Uh,  so I had to be told, basically.

How did, how did that,  How did that make you feel for having to make those changes? Did you, did you feel scared about having to make those changes and perhaps the consequence that might have professionally, um, did you feel empowered to do it and We're just only worried about your health.

What did that look like? Must be must have been some internal conflict there as well, I suppose, from  from having gone through that mindset for so long for so many years.

um,  well, I completely surrendered, basically.  Uh, I just, I, I,

when I realized that

I basically almost died,

while

I was, uh,

having our third son.

Uh,

that was the point of realisation that I, that just made me surrender. tell me what to do. I'll do it.

Uh, in full. I will. Don't eat this. Don't eat that. Don't do this. I won't do it. Uh, I just completely surrendered. Uh, I'm also very lucky. I have a very supportive wife. Um, and that we, we live in Portugal, but both our moms live very close to us. So we have a very good support system. even, even though we have small kids, I am able to go to bed at 9pm and have my rest because I need it. Uh, my wife is a chef. So my, even though I'm on a diet, you know, I hope because she knows how to make anything well, uh, or, or taste proper. Um, so I completely surrendered. And then within two weeks, I noticed the changes myself. I noticed I got color back in my skin. Um, I started disappearing a little bit. I was feeling better. So I surrendered to the situation. It's like, if I don't do this, then it's the end of the road, like literally.

Um, and as soon as I started surrendering to it, uh, I noticed the differences that it made for me personally on my health. And then I also saw the effect on the team. Uh, you know, I saw the team stepping up.

I saw the team doing well. Um, and I saw that, you know, performance was better, uh, or the same or if not better, So,

 And why do you think that is, Mike? Why do you think the team's performing so much better? Like, what are some of the biggest changes you think that has affected that? 

um, me enabling, uh, them to, to, to do so.

Um, so when I was a compliance consultant on my own, I, I noticed why I'm doing the work that I'm doing, which is because. The industry needs it and the quality is not not as good everywhere and and the level is not as good as as it should be in some in some markets especially. Um, I'm very confident in my own work. Um, because, uh, because of the way I've been doing it in the recent and the success that I've been getting from it and and the feedback that I've been getting from it. And then when you build a company, you try to basically duplicate yourself. And that, that, is something you should not do, uh, which is for, for any business owner out there.

If you are good on your own doing something and you want to make a business out of it, don't try to duplicate yourself because that's not how the world functions, right? Growing a company and a team is far different than doing any, than scaling what you are good at on your own. being forced to delegate fully and build and build in approval systems, QA systems, uh, like funneling up to me instead of me signing off and actually executing the last parts. I could see that they feel that they get more responsibility and therefore they want to do better because they want to deliver on what is being assigned to them. And my team also cares about me personally. So we're friends, uh, so they also felt the need like, Hey, we really need to also support Mike in this, right? So they also had this need to, to, to, to step up. And then as soon as I saw how good they were doing this, I started just praising it, praising them on every single aspect. To the extent that, you know, we make jokes within the teams about being modest, being humble, where internally we're not humble at all.

Everyone is great. Everyone's perfect. You know, just boost your confidence a little

bit internally.  and yeah, it's been helping. It's been working out. It's been working out. Yeah.

Hey, so you've set some really some quite some strict boundaries around kind of how you manage time and when you shut off for the day. when you start the day, when you go to bed, all super healthy, right? Those, those boundaries, it, however, it comes also comes with some decision making, I suppose, right?

Because Now you've got fewer hours that you're actually working in than you have had before. So how do you, how do you decide what is going to happen within that fixed time box that you have now? Because one of the big things must also be that you're now saying no to more things that you weren't saying no to before, I suppose.

true. Uh, good point. Um, so I really limited my work hours to eight in the morning till four in the afternoon. Uh, where together with our operations director loose, um, at the start of the week and at the end of the week, we together decide on the, to-do list.   for the week and, and the division of tasks. Uh, and even though, you know, she reports in, into me on, on, on the compliance consultancy site, she tells me what to do. So I gave her the responsibility and the freedom to run the consultancy team on her own and to really basically guide me and tell me what to do. I want to focus on two things because the two things that I'm good at is bringing in new business and executing that business. And I want to spend my time accordingly doing that about 50 percent of the time doing sales and business development. The other 50 percent of the time executing compliance work. Anything that is outside of that is done by someone else. So we have a dedicated CFO, dedicated CMO, dedicated CEO, dedicated operations director, HR, and they do what they are good at best. within those eight hours, including breaks, I need to both build the business and also execute the work. on one hand, on one side, we do, we do this allocation of tasks between media and prices director, which is really, which works really well. Usually when you are on top of the management layer, you think like, or you need to instruct people down in the, in the hierarchy on what to do.

Um, But if you hire the right people, they know what they are good at and what they should be doing. And you should be able in a position to allow them to tell you what needs to be, what needs to happen, uh, in order to execute. And that is something I, I, I learned this, that, especially the people executing the work and, and, and, and, and the middle layers, have them tell you what needs to be done. 

Love it. What a fantastic lesson, Mike. I love that. Really, really cool. Thank you.  I want to touch a little bit on neurodiversity as well, if that's okay for you. So you mentioned it at the beginning, So tell me a little bit more about how that's really helped you and also where that maybe, uh, has made it really difficult for you.

What lessons you've learned throughout time living with, you know, ADHD and, uh, like how you actually use that in your day to day, day to day life.

 So I got diagnosed when I was about 10 years old.  uh, 23 years ago, I went through a very extensive,  diagnosis and therapy sessions to really drill down to basically what is wrong with Mike, uh, because I was hyperactive, not listening, uh, not focusing, et cetera. So I went through this whole meal of tests and, uh, and evaluations and they, they had a, the, the dual diagnosis of ADHD and high intelligence. blessing and a curse. It's, it's a curse when you go to school. Uh, it's a blessing where you find something that you're really good at. Uh, one thing that, uh, my mom was very, uh, quick about is that. I'm not going to do medicine for all of my life. because then you haven't treated the problem. You're just treating the symptoms basically with medicine. So we really at the start already really invested time in therapy and tips and tricks,

uh, which you deal with a lot of failing and testing. Uh, but I kind of learned what I should not be putting, putting focus towards, uh, and what, and how I can utilize my neurodivergency. So one of the things that ADHD kids especially are really bad at is the small stuff, you know, closing doors, picking up your shoes, hanging up your jacket, don't forget your school lunch, don't forget your books, all that kind of stuff. and I learned like, it doesn't matter how much time and effort I put into trying to fix that.

I will never ever fix that. So why should I try and fix something that I cannot fix? uh, while at the same time, I also am very good because of my ADHD at uh, reading and digesting information and making decisions and, and creativity. and because my mom also acknowledged that and she, she saw that and she's the power of it.

You know, she, she started to not tell me off when I forgot my jacket, my shoes, my lunch and anything like that. And it helped me build system and tips and tricks around that. Uh, you know, for, you know, just small things like I have this dedicated place near, near the door, which is made for me, where I put my keys, my wallet, my thing and everything. And if not, everything is not in there, then someone else will seize my key somewhere. We'll just pick up the keys and put it there. Uh, instead of telling me, Mike, you forgot to put your keys there again, small things like this, like tips and tricks on what you cannot fix. really helps. Uh, now with school, uh, yeah, the school's unfortunately what it is.

It is, the system is what it is. Uh, and you have to go through it. Uh, now I started out on the highest, uh, uh, level possible. Um, and I, I am two grades and it took me seven years to complete school. Because one side of my grades were amazing. The other side was, you know, you can put as much effort into it as you want.

It will never go any better because

it won't just, it won't click. and I'm lucky that I have a supportive mom like that. That really guided me through my teenage years in this.

Uh, and really made me feel powerful as a, as a ADHD, high intelligent kid and not as a weird kid that is, that is busy and hyperactive.

Uh, so that really helps me, and because I've been, tutored that way, basically, I also took that with me into the workforce.

Uh,  so I don't focus on things that I'm not good at. Uh, I like to have other people support me in that. And I focus on what I'm really good at.

Yep. Which is which may be like you said for you, the creative side. really kind of reading up on things, which I suppose is great and complies, especially, uh, reading up on, on stuff and making sure that you make decisions that, uh, drive, drive the business forward.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Um, yeah, which in the consultancy space, it helps me a lot in terms of knowledge and expertise because I've managed to soak up information and create links between them in my head that others are struggling with.  The difficult side, however, in consultancy when you have a brain like mine is pricing, uh, which Might be a little bit surprising, but, uh, the reason I'm saying it is because I, I can do work processes in my head like four or five times faster than, than the average, uh, consultant does. So if someone takes, takes six hours to do something, I can likely do it with, uh, in less than two. So should I then apply an hourly rate that is three times as high? but if I do that, then everyone will be like, why, why is your hourly rate so high? Right. Why? Yeah. So you start, you need to explain your, your pricing strategy then. Uh, while it does, well, it's justifiable, right? If I, if I do it in three times or three times less the, the amount of time, then my rate should be three times as high. So instead of doing that, we more, more work towards fixed fees for projects and deliverables because otherwise you're, you're, you're just competing with yourself or shooting yourself in the foot.

 Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You know, then you've just got to move to value based pricing, right? Because otherwise it makes no sense. I, I read this story a while back from, uh, from a logo designer. It's random, but a logo designer, and he's been doing it for 20 years. So super quick at making logos.

Now, should he charge, you know, way more per hour? I don't know. He's quicker than somebody that's just started doing it, but he should just charge per logo, right? And the quality of the logo, of course, is going to make a difference. And it's very similar for you, I suppose. So how did you, how did you feel about making that change, Michael, kind of more towards project based and value based?

Is that, is that typical in compliance consultancy, or is that something that is, don't know, how did that

Um,  well, yes and no. Well, so as bet comply, we do. We tailor our pricing to the client because we work with startups and tier one operators and anything in between.

So some companies, they want fixed fees for budgeting reasons. Others want flexibility because of budget reasons and flexibility reasons. So whatever the client wants in terms of format, we do. My preferred way of working, especially when we're working on license applications or audits or reviews, is to work on a fixed fee basis. Because it's very clear for everyone what is to be expected on that site. And when we do go into hourly rates or monthly retainers or things like this. It's not that they're buying the hours for me personally, because we have a whole team that supports that retainer. Um, so we did manage to find a way on how to do it. Uh, and the way that we are doing it is very clear, very concise. Uh, and there's no overcharging of coffee machine meetups in between their team and neither.

Yeah. Love it. kind of closing off a little bit, Mike, you've seen the heights of success in business and also the dangers of gaming. Like, what would you, what would your advice be to other leaders about sustainable success?

 right. Let me start with, um, the, the duplication issue. Uh, so especially leaders when they start companies, they feel very good about what they can do and what they bring to the table and building a company is not about duplicating yourself. Uh, that's the totally wrong way of doing it because there's only one of you to start with. Um, so I would really not, I would try to not duplicate you. That should be an aim. You know, it should, it should not be duplicating the, the founder or, or, or the leader of the, uh, of the team. Uh, you should be figuring out from the drawing board what needs to be done and what kind of people do we need in order for that to be done. Uh, and not, oh, I have this idea with this company, so we should be doing these things. And I know I'm good at that. I need someone that is equally as good as me at doing this. I, uh, and, and break it down into tasks and activities and what kind of people need to excel in those tasks and activities, um, and, and build your team from the ground up in that way. Uh, that is one thing that I, um, uh, I, I, I tend to advise.

and the other one is, is, is your work life balance. Um, you know,

everyone says work hard, play hard,

and, uh, oh, I'm the owner of the company, so I have to, uh, to work 80 hours a week, otherwise, uh, the, the company is not, uh, succeeding.

Well, if the company is not succeeding

and you are, uh,

working 80 hours a week, then the company is not succeeding because you are working 80 hours a week.

Um, that, that could very well be the reason why. the company should function within the boundaries that it's given. So within the 40 hours, within the within the time constraints that are there. If you're not succeeding within those boundaries, don't expand the boundaries, but rework what is inside those boundaries.

 I really love that, Mike. So if, if somebody that's listening is actually finding themselves there, right, working 60 70 80 hours and having no idea how to actually work fewer hours without having to compromise on their career or on their success in business, how, what should the first step be that they Should take you feel.

Have someone else tell you.

I

Yeah. So and that can be a colleague internally can be, uh, can be someone from C level. Can even can it be anyone that understands your line of work? You know, don't discuss this with your spouse or your family because they don't understand the intricacies of your work. Needs to be someone that knows the work, but you need to give them the power to tell you because if you are doing 60, hours and you're fully integrated in your way of working and you're stuck. That means you're stuck. So don't try to unstuck yourself. Uh, explain the problem to someone internally or the industry peer or a coach or whatever, whatever it is, but explain it to them. Give them the power to tell you what to do and just try it out.

Love it. Fantastic. Mike. Hey, thank you very much. Really inspirational talk. I am so happy that you're on the mend. Um, and starting to feel better. Uh, and thank you for all of the advice.

Thank you for having me and have a great one. Thank you.

  📍 📍 Wow. What an eye opening story from Mike? It left me really inspired because. I remember being at SBC, getting ready for my presentation. And seeing somebody really young walk around with a walking stick. And I was quite shocked seeing that because it's something that you don't see very often, he had clearly had a stroke and I didn't know him, so I didn't go over, but I was curious to hear what was, what was going on. Then he posted on LinkedIn and shared his story, which I found so brave.

So I reached out to tell him how brave I thought that was. And I asked him to come onto the gaming leader where he's clearly shared his story. Um, it left me with three very powerful insights that I think will help you as well. The first one is how important it is to find balance in life and to manage our own boundaries, to not just set boundaries, but to protect those boundaries as well.

So that we work within those constraints. Very often we shift our boundaries. And we start compromising our own health and wellbeing as a result. And that is very typical. I think in I gaming and something that most of us struggle with. But operating within those boundaries is so important because as you can see, he didn't even realize that he was having a stroke while he was inside of it.

Right. So. Very important to do. It also leads me to the second point, 📍 which is that when you struggle to understand how to work within those boundaries and you never have the time or the Headspace or the energy to actually figure it out, It's important to get help from someone else, somebody external that can help you see what's going on and where perhaps you're stuck and what the things are that you can do to improve. Your performance, productivity, time management, leadership, delegate, whatever that is. Uh, it's really important because when you're inside your own bottle, it's impossible to read the label.

Right. And that's something that Mike does to this day and he shared as well. The third thing is that it's really important to hire a team where you're not trying to 📍 duplicate yourself, but you hire for of wide variety of roles. Petro was talking about this in the second episode as well. Uh, we've heard Maria talk about it.

On the last episode, it is such a key thing to do, because like Mike was saying, when you actually give responsibility to that team and you step out and you are no longer a bottleneck, you're no longer signing off, but you give full responsibility to the team. The business actually starts performing better, but that's a little bit scary.

So really key skill to develop as well. How to delegate for developing high performance teams. So that's what I've got for you this week. If you found this episode helpful and you took anything away from it, please leave a rating and review. It takes you less than 10 seconds, and it really helps other gaming leaders.

Like you find this podcast as well. So that's it for this week. Next time we're talking to Lex Scott, who's the vice president of gaming at ITV studios. He shares his journey. On struggles with mental health and how fatherhood has really shaped his leadership style. And what he does today to be a high-performance leader as well.

I hope to see you there and I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. Take care.

  📍