Elen Barber: From Affiliate Manager to CMO — Leading Through Crisis, Regulation & Restructure

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It it's too easy to make money in our industry comparing to any other industries, right? The margins are much higher. So, we are spoiled for this. It doesn't drive us an innovation, but also it doesn't give us the results that we actually can get if we just think a little bit outside the box. You also create opportunities. You don't wait for the opportunities to be created for you. You can't rely completely on your manager to get you through your career. It takes two people. You to show your interest and to show the potential and actually do extra things. And it takes a good manager to

recognize and reward you for that. For the leader, as higher you go, you become more of a generalist. You lose your sort of touch with the subject. And it is scary for the leader to understand and accept that suddenly you know significantly less than a people within your team. I think a lot of leaders actually fail because they're so focused on keeping their role safe. It was a horrible time. dealing with a massive restructure, quite a few things going wrong when it comes to financial results. The share price has gone down. We had to do quite significant headcom cuts. I think it was the most

stressful time in my career because everything went wrong and at some point you just have to say we're going to take one day at a time. We're going to work really hard and then I'll make sure that we end up in as bad a situation as we can. When we decided to leave Kindred, it kind of looked like a great plan. I'm going to spend time with my family. It's going to be summer. We had a trip to Florida booked. But what I didn't realize that I've been working all my life and I didn't know how to relax. Couple of weeks down the line, I

miss that mental stimulation. And we sometimes forget to talk about our families, how difficult for them when you go through this change because I was unbearable. >> Welcome to the i Gaming Leader podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins. And as an exi gaming director turned performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entame, 365, Flutter, and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So, with that being

said, let's dive in. Hey everybody, welcome to the I Gaming Leader podcast. I am here with Ellen Barber who's gone from affiliate manager to CMO at Kindred in 9 years. She managed 550 people through Swedish regulation, $100 million fine, pandemic, chaos, the worst crisis in the company history. But really, what's uh yeah, when most people create distance, most executives create distance between themselves and the team. Ellen is actually somebody that used to walk the floor making tea for a team. Not because she's nice, but she is, but because she doesn't want to have Yes, people. She wants the truth. So, thank you for being on

the podcast. Really excited to have you here today. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. >> I'd love to talk a little bit first about actually what got you into gaming. Could you start off there? I would say sometimes styles just have to align and I was still at uni and a professor in my university who was teaching PR was working together was advising a startup and they were looking for marketeteers and there was sort of two options uh either to go the forex route or to go the gambling route and I felt like you know working with money it's a bit too it's a

bit too scary so I chose the gambling route and I didn't know anything about it um I think when you are young you just hadn't got that fear right you don't overthink so I was sort of thrown into deep water given the email address right what message to write to affiliates and uh there we go and really quickly I realized how dynamic this industry was that time it was a pretty much wild west it was really exciting right you could do whatever you want it was about all about building the relationship negotiation and creating the trust with your partners which I actually served uh its

purpose when it comes to you know being a leader because you want to have that trustworth relationship with your team that you're always going to have their back and they're going to have your back but yeah that's how we started thrown into the deep water affiliate manager and 5 years later on I moved to the UK and I joined uh back then Uniat >> you said something that you something like that you chose PR because you excluded every traditional no profession and your professor told you something like internet marketing has zero future. That's obviously that didn't age very well. >> No, that didn't. >> No. What

makes it what is it about you that always makes you comfortable with being the outlier or maybe the challenger there? >> So, actually there were two different professors, right? So the one that got me into the job, she was sort of younger and she understood the possibilities of that role, but it was my my final work at the university that I was doing around affiliate marketing and they just didn't see the scale or the potential of it because it just didn't really exist at that time. I wouldn't call myself as a challenger, right? I would call myself more more of a innovator. I like to

look at the causes, right? you know what's what the foundations of a problem that we're trying to solve and and start from there. But it's always interesting to look for alternative solutions because that's what makes I think the job really exciting otherwise it's just the same old thing again and again and again and I think especially about our industry right we are actually doing the same thing again and again so we are really as industry lacking I think innovation or sort of different way of thinking so I like to I like to cherish that >> I was actually talking about to somebody about it last

week it's so easy to just make a copy of something and still make a ton of money, right? So, there's there wasn't a real drive to for innovation because copying would just, you know, would just would just work, right? Do you do you see it the same way? >> It it's too easy to make money in our industry comparing to any other industries, right? So, I think the margins are much higher. So we are spoiled for this but yes it doesn't drive us innovation but also it doesn't give us the results that we actually can get if we just think a little bit outside the

box and there are obly there are foundations that that can be the same right especially when it comes to technology and things like that but when it comes to strategy I think you really need to make sure you adapt your your strategy product to product right or from market to market so you really can't copy paste and you shouldn't copy paste because at different also points of You're working with a completely different audiences, different people. It's the same as you and me. Imagine yourself 10 years ago. You were completely different person. Your values, right? And your hobbies, right, your challenges were completely different and it's

ob not going to work. >> No, it makes a lot of sense. Hey, um, Ellen, you went from affiliate manager to CMO. In 9 years time, you had six promotions. I would love for you to walk us through that. Not so much the the promotions itself but like the moments that happen are the moments where you think you look at the job above you or what however you want to call it right the next stage in your career you think oh maybe I could do that and then there's a time it takes until you think ah I can actually you believe that you can actually

do it so I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that journey and those steps that you took and the mental challenges were to getting ready to for that next level and how you got there. It's a really good question because I don't think there is a um every single step was a different challenge is a sort of different approach to it but I think what I always say to people you also create opportunities right you don't wait for the opportunities to be created for you and um you can't rely completely on your manager to get you through your career so I think

it takes two people it takes you to show your interest and to show the potential and actually do extra things and it takes manager a good manager to recognize and reward you for that. So that's that's what I've been sort of doing I think through all my life is is creating these opportunities for myself and was really lucky you know enough through my career to have people around me that recognized this opportunities and rewarded me with with the promotion but it always started from me and taking that first step. I think it also that as the industry was was developing and the marketing was really

sort of changing that also kind of played in my favor. So there are different channels as more markets got regulated the different channels got created. So I took that responsibility without asking for any sort of pay rise or title and as a result of a hard work. But I think what was the most difficult step is that is actually to get promoted to that you know sea level because suddenly the attitude um people that you used to work with really for many years changes because now you are a sea level right you're making these decisions and it is really important that people still remember you

as who you were before and don't turn into yes people all the time because it's so easy to just have the team that constantly agrees with your decision and doesn't challenge you back. So really make sure that they they know that they can challenge you in a healthy way and know that you can have a transparent conversation and don't get punished for that. And it always takes time to build this trust with the relationship. But I think that's the only way how you can have a really strong team that is more knowledgeable than you are because it's it's quite scary I think for the leader

as higher you go you become more of a generalist you lose your sort of touch with the subject and it's it's scary for the leader to understand and accept that suddenly you know significantly less than people within your team. They're not there to first of all they're there to challenge you in a good way. They're there to support you in your career. They're there to grow the business together with you, but also they're your successors. So then they're they're not your competition. You are a big team. And I think a lot of a lot of leaders actually fail that because they're so focused on, you

know, keeping their role safe. >> How was it for you, Ellen, that like when was the first time that you realized there were yes men there? You know, there were people that are not necessarily challenging your your decisions or your ideas. So that must have been really difficult because you you grow through the ranks, right? You you've been together with those people for a long time. They're your friends. You're their boss, right? And now all of a sudden you notice that people are not challenging you, challenging you anymore, but just agreeing with you. When when was the first time that you noticed it that that

happened and what did you do about it? >> I think it happened properly, you know, within the first week of of me becoming the exact. You've got to face it and you've got to be very honest saying that, you know, clearly you're agreeing. You've got to be honest and open with people saying that nothing is going to change in the relationship. Sometimes you as an exec have to make really challenging decisions when people disagree as well. So it's a fine balance between uh I think your team challenging you and you making the right decisions for the sake of the business as well. But yeah, I

think it becomes apparent really quickly. >> Did you find that difficult? you find it difficult to realize that that was going on and that that's kind of the normal behavior or the behavior that people fall into when suddenly you're their boss. >> It wasn't difficult. I think it was more it was more sad because everyone says this and the higher you go the lower you get. But you only realize it when you face that and you learn to adapt, right? You learn to create different type of relationship with people. Um but yeah, that's that's the nature I think of humans. the higher it gets, the

lonier it gets. It's so true. You don't realize that before you actually get to the to that sea level position. You don't realize that that's actually true. You hear it, but you don't experience it. So that must have been a bit of a slap in the face when you're in such a you know such a family environment almost for such a long time with Kindred and suddenly you feel feel alone. >> I don't think I ever felt alone, right? Because because then you are in a different I was so lucky I think with Kindred, right? It was a really big family as I said to

you before, right? It was is it was a place where I grew up you know you know physically right and I was studying when I was 27 working there for uh sort of 14 nearly 14 years and then professionally you know I've managed to to keep sort of a circle of of my friends all ofes that I that I sort of work with and like spending time with but also expanded my relationship into the new circle of the exact team. It was an amazing team to work with. You know, I remember Breit really taking taking me under her wing and looking after me and uh

you know telling all the stories how she she you know grew up through through different roles in the company and you never feel that you are alone. It probably doesn't happen you know in in many companies. So I don't think that my experience you know it was a traditional becoming an exec. >> You reminded me of Brit earlier actually. It's funny that you mentioned her name just now. You reminded me of her when you were saying how you take that role. That's what she said on the podcast as well. She said you don't ask for the corner office, you take it. I will remember it

forever. >> I think it's the drive, right? That drive has to be in you, right? Because if you're passionate about something, uh you have to drive it through. Has it always been like that for you that you take the extra step, you go the extra mile, you do the extra work and then things will happen as a result of that or is that something that you learned early on in your career that that's maybe the better approach to to take? >> I never had a different experience, right? That's my personal attitude to work. So that's probably not the easiest way because you have to work

you know more to to get rewarded in the beginning hoping that you are in the right surrounding and for people to recognize because there's so many examples of when you when you go extra mile you work extra hard but then you don't get recognized. So I was really lucky that I chose throughout my career to work with people that trusted and supported me and uh that we grew together. >> Yeah. And how did you feel about other people that you maybe saw in your career that were also making progress were doing taking a different approach, maybe taking the approach of trying to win people over

when perhaps they you knew from just working with them that they weren't that great. You know, we've all seen those type of people in our careers, right? That kind of I don't know, they escaped somehow the scrutiny that we seem to have to go through. How did you feel about those people and seeing that that progress happening? Did did you you feel frustrated by it? Was it just part of the part of the role? Uh how do you deal with those kind of things? >> That's a good question. I think you learn with time to accept it. This is completely out of your control and

there is no point in in worrying and sort of getting agitated or angry about it because there is nothing really you can do. It is out of control. That's their choice. Um, and you know, if it's not your choice, just leave it leave it to them. >> Yeah, let them theory. I like it. >> Let them. Yeah, >> it's such a great mindset. I I completely agree. >> But it's it's it's not it's not that you're ignoring it, right? If it's something that bothers you, right? It's something that affects you, right? It doesn't mean you should completely let it go, right? Because it's obviously, you

know, there's there's you have to change it. Rachel Morris, you know, an amazing individual. Um, she used to put me in different chairs. So be in the same room and she'll put two chairs. I said, "Well, Eden, you sit in this chair and how are you going to feel if everything goes exactly the same way? If you know these people around you going to keep on, you know, annoying, right, or you know, you're not going to get the outcome that you after and then let's move to another chair, right? So, if you make some changes and then she taught me to to wear different hats, it's

amazing technique, right? because you you learn to leave this emotions and then train yourselves like well I don't want to be in this angry anxious state of mind. I want to be in peace right I want to be happy. sort of the certain hard choices that I've got to make and if they're talking about sort of people that support you your career journey and you know me talk about it right you can work extremely hard and you can go an extra mile and you can have a you know conversations with your with your manager about your career progression but if that manager doesn't recognize you

and you've done everything that is in your power what's your what's the only choice that that you're left with you've got to leave and you've got to find a better place You can go on and get frustrated and not look for the job. But you know looking for a job is going to take you it's going to take a lot of time. It's very uncomfortable process. You've got to sell yourself right and you've got to face different people and not everyone is going to be right for you. You're going to face completely sort of unknown environments. You're pushing yourself into unknown. But if you're not

going to do that, the only outcome you have is you're going to be again in this unhappy environment. It's not changing anything. >> So, what were some of the things that you used to do to help you create an environment where people would be happy to speak their mind, to be happy to challenge you, to push back on the things that perhaps you wanted to drive through? What what what were some of the things that worked well for you? >> I think people knew that as I said in the beginning that I'm always going to have their back and that trust is not created over

a day or a week, right? You know people have to see that your words materialize in your actions and I think they really have to see how you grow also within your career. They know they have to see how you handle challenging situations but ultimately they also have to see your your true nature. So we all have bad days. We all have really bad days, right? And you know, not to create that shield that everything is fine and perfect. Sometimes, you know, share the emotions and frustrations that you have with the right individuals and actually in in most of the cases they're going to help

you to get through that. So at the end they're going to see you're not just you know a manager, a leader, you are the same human being. You've just been given you've got different skill set. you've been given different opportunity and and different challenges and um I think you both feel lucky to work with each other but I think it's also about extending your relationship a little bit further from work right it's not just about 9 to5 9 to6 or whatever right your your normal working hours it's meeting with their families you know we had um you know family day and sort of sort of

bring your uh kids to work or Christmas parties and you suddenly start seeing people in their natural habitat. So being able to create relationship with also their families I think is extremely important. remember what they did yesterday, right? If their their kid was sick, right? Or the wife is uh or you know partner, right? Is going through maybe some, you know, job process or health issues, whatever. Just ask about it. >> Be a nice person does help. >> Well, ju just be just be a person be a good human being, right? And I think it's we all we always we all feel I think great

about, you know, being in power, being in charge. I think again it's it's a normal you know human nature. Uh but let's not get I think blinded by that. >> I do think that a lot of people when they first make a you know big progress in their career or they step up into a level that perhaps they feel they're not yet ready for that they feel that they've got to wear a mask almost right they've got to pretend to be someone that they're not yet because they they don't believe it themselves yet perhaps. Right. >> It's much safer. It's the way how human beings

protect yourself. you put the mask, you go to the party and you have no idea who these people are. So you put a mask that you're really excited but you know at the end of the day right you you know you you become someone else. So I think it's a big skill to remain yourself, remain true to yourself in different circumstances. And it doesn't mean that you have to be the same everywhere because you've got to adapt to people that you talk to. You've got to change topics. You've got to change, you know, uh the level of conversation, the type of conversations he has. But

don't change your values. >> That's what I loved about you as well. When we first met each other in Lisbon, I thought, you know, you're so natural, just a party with loads of people that we didn't know and you felt very easy to talk to, easy to adapt to different situations. But has it always been like that for you, Ellen? Did you ever feel that you had to put on a mask in maybe as you progressed in your career and that you had to pretend that you were someone that you didn't believe you were yet? >> I think probably early in the beginning, uh, you

have to do that. and maybe my, you know, Eastern European also heritage. He naturally tells me to put that mask on, right? You know, people see us as really sort of scary human beings, but you just literally fab a sear in his face, right? You know, when I concentrate and have a really serious scary face and actually I have to try to put a different mask on it and try to be sort of more more sort of kind and uh sort of welcoming to people. But it doesn't mean that you become fake, right? It means that you you learn traits that are necessary for your

career development for the relationship building. It doesn't mean that it changes your your your venue just part of you growing up. >> All right. So then in I think January 2019 you became CMO at uh Kindred and within the first few weeks you get hit by massive fine. Right. To the last question you were saying sometimes you got really bad days, sometimes you got the worst day. Take me take me back to when that happened. You you're first stepping into that role. Obviously as upheaval. How was that? How was that for you? How did you deal with it? It >> was a horrible time, right? It

was like dealing with a massive restructure, Swedish reurulation, quite a few things going wrong when it comes to sort of financial results. the the share price has gone down and um you know managing managing restructure as a result of the fine that we had to do quite significant headcome cuts and you just it feels like you're losing it um and uh I think it was the most stressful time and probably in in in my career because everything went wrong. I think it was a big test like am I actually able to handle that amount of stress and you know bad things coming your way but

again I had I had amazing team surrounding me and you just take one thing at a time and sometimes you just have to you just have to say yourself you you know you've got to be that little scarlet from you know gold with the wins like I'm going to think about it tomorrow you know there's there's one thing I can do and should do right now is and you know next thing is going to be done tomorrow and it's step by step creating the plan. I think it's important for the business but also that's important for for your sort of mental health health um health

because otherwise if I'm going to lose it then you know my team is not you know first of all what know what to do right and which direction we're going and that's the big role of the leader is doesn't really matter how difficult it is you've got to protect your team and and make sure that they're focused on things that can make it you know that can change the situation and This is exactly what I think I did. I think it was a great stepping stone. It was a great lesson for me u you know earning the days and um sometimes I'm really I'm really

grateful for challenges like this that come my way. >> When you think back to it now do you do you remember the days? What was the hardest part of it? I think not knowing what is going to happen tomorrow because I think especially when you go through the restructure you manage the change you want to give some certainty to people. So there were sort of two big challenges. One is stabilizing financial situation and you need to keep people motivated and make them work really hard and go the extra mile maybe an extra 20 miles and in the same time you know that you're you're you're

doing restructure. So a lot of these people are under risk and they're probably going to have their jobs but there's going to be in a in a completely different sort of environment. Maybe there are change of responsibilities or they're going to step up or step down. So how do you keep people motivated and making sure that they work hard while you know that and they know that they might have a job or might not have a job. Right? So that's that's one thing and second is that we had to make probably about three or four iterations to that you know structure and cutting the headcount

and cutting and cutting. though people would go for the role and then you know a few you know couple of weeks down the line because things were just changing so quickly and at some point you just have to say we're going to take one day at a time we're going to work really hard and then I'll make sure that you know we end up in as best situation as we can and I think that's what really got me united with with my team and so many years down the line we're still in touch we still have really good relationship because they trusted me there were

so new things that are completely out of our control and we're just doing um you know we we're just we're just trying to survive >> very difficult time and and I love that you just said that uh that was a stepping stone and you learn so much from those challenges and they forged relationships they make you so much stronger which you can't see when you're in the middle of it right >> yeah you feel like your sort of your life is ending and it is very difficult I think with kindred it was very difficult to for many individuals to really separate your sort of your

life from from your career because it was really a family. It was important in situations like this to be really objective and and and make choices that are right for the business even if personally uh they were quite hurtful >> especially because they're so close people so close to you and and can't do anything about it. What like let's let's get a lesson out of this with the recent increases in in tax in the UK. You know there's many businesses that are going to that are facing significant challenges as well and restructuring. When you look back now to that period that you've gone through, what

was some of the maybe the worst things that you did and some of the best things that you did? So some of the things that you wouldn't do again if you look back now and some of the things that you would absolutely do again if you were forced if you were forced in into a similar situation again. you really have to try to take emotions out of the business decisions because these things do these two things do not work together. So, you know, be extremely objective and I think, you know, when a lot of a lot of companies have announced they they had come cuts

and it's going to be great people that are going to sort of leave the business, think about it as your next opportunity. So, it's people that are just hitting the market. think it's a next opportunity you think that okay I was so happy I did great obviously they didn't value me but they might have done but there is no way that the company can you know kick you in the circumstances in the current circumstances so think about is a next step towards you know to towards something bigger and more interesting in your career I think for for companies sometimes you have to make this hard

choices and leave the markets uh and but be able to make that decision the hard decisions because even in kindred we were going around and you know like should we stay here should we go it's like yeah still a couple of million but the amount of time and effort it takes for the business to run even you know operations even for this you know couple of million sometimes it's just you know just make a hard decision just that's I don't know broken hands uh broken arms and just just just leave it right and move on and find an opportunity that is going to be more

fruitful >> because one of the things at the at the end of a restructure also means that people have to change, right? They have to change their there's way ways of working, perhaps the roles that they're in. As we all know, some people are very resistant to change and some people embrace it, right? But as we as we face challenges in a business and we face challenges with we need to work in different ways. So tell me about someone or a situation where somebody's highly talented is a high performer but is maybe stuck in their ways and you know enable unable to change. How did

how did how did you deal about that? How did you deal with that? >> I had a few grand examples like that. And some of them were with people that I was really close with and it was it was sad, but you've got to let these people go because again ultimately you're representing business. And it is important for you to be able to disconnect your personal relationship and professional relationship. Some people not be able to do it. That's why you end up at businesses where there are sort of you know friends of working with friends and there's nothing nothing bad working with friends but friends

probably will find difficult to challenge you right to say that you're wrong because they wouldn't like to lose that friendship as well I'm reading the book now about the laws of power it tells you all about these things right how you surround yourself with people you know that that that are sort of right how you manage change and how you work with your sort of superiors supporting not undermining them. And I think, you know, in this case, you're always going to have people that that join you straight away, people that will need, you know, a couple more conversations, but the key here is to have

your door open, especially when you manage a really big transition, really big reorganization where you're creating roles or functions that's that are completely unknown to the business. So, you need to make sure that you spend time with people. It can be you know hundreds of hours right to explain your vision but the change always starts from the top. So you can be talking about the change but still not changing the way how you work yourselves. So you change and then you get your team to change and drive that transformation together with you and there will people that will be resistant to that and you have

to make a decision that if they're great individuals and a great skill set is there any place in the business that they can that is good for them and if there isn't unfortunately you know it's it's a time to sort of go in different directions. These are tough conversations that a lot of leaders just don't like to have. >> Yeah. And avoid even. Right. >> Yeah. and and you you end up with this, you know, massive headcount of people that that is completely out of control and sort of different levels of security. So then when you join the new business and you've been tked to

sort of to clear it up, it's like how did you actually end up with a structure like this and you realize you realize that sort of connections on connections and someone's done a great job here but actually not really great here. But we're still trying to keep this people because if something happens in the future, they might be useful. But at this time of the business, I think it's it's cost. And you know, where we are, I think in the industry, we we just can't have any costs like this. I think it's quite brutal way of saying it. But, you know, it's I think it's

both your team and the leaders really need to understand that. >> Yeah. I think is so important and it's so easy to hold on to people that were high performers before and maybe still are but are resistant to change especially when the business requires change. So thank you for sharing that. Um in uh in May 2023 right four seale execs leave within days. >> I are you going through all my traumatic experiences? >> I will. Is that okay for you? >> Yes. I I I just I would love to draw lessons from it, you know, because it's not they're your experiences and they're your lessons, but

they're the experiences that so many of the people that listen to go through as well. And I think one of the big problems that we have in our industry, Tom, one of my clients, Tom Glanis, he talked about it. Um he said, you know, we go to conferences and we see these people on stage and they talk about like how awesome everything is and how fantastic the business is running. And that's what you see, right? you see the glory and the successes and because that's the mask that people show and it sets this this bar that you can't reach, right? Because it's not real. It's

not reality. The reality is we go through challenges and those challenges are actually great because like you said before, they are our stepping stones, right? They are our lessons. They are the things that make us into who we are today and uh the leaders that we are today. So, >> yeah, I think everything was great on the paper, right? and we decided to to leave Kindred. It kind of looks like a great plan. There's a life after Kindred. I'm going to spend time with my family. It's going to be summer. We had a trip to to Florida booked. But what I didn't realize that I've

been working all my life and I didn't know how to relax. Um, so I think you know very very quickly a couple of weeks down the line and I realized that I miss that mental stimulation and we sometimes forget to talk about our families how difficult for them when you go through this change because I was unbearable. I didn't think it at that time and I kept myself I think as busy as as possible and one of the great achievements you know I went to I went to Harvard I did the the executive course there you know four months that really kept me busy and

I I have no idea how I would be able to survive that and I'm very happy to talk about because see a lot of people take the sort of career breaks and I said everything is is rosy they go and spend time with their families with their friends. I didn't enjoy it. Didn't enjoy a single moment of it. And I was rushing to go back to to work. But it's important to be able to relax because again, it's a valuable lessons that this experience teaches you. I thought that I was dealing with stress quite well. But that was the biggest stress of my life because

there was no I was locked out of of the market for quite some time and I didn't know what's going to happen. I'm you know someone that likes to plan things and for the first time I was able to think to to plan things that are in my control but nothing beyond that and I was after 14 years facing the recruitment market and I was so loyal to kindred I you know I didn't practice I did not have any sort of conversation and suddenly said that who are these people that I have to build new relationship with but now I had you know all the

time in the world so what I'm going to do with it so I had to create a routine and be really disciplined about my day and that's actually one of the things that you know I spoke to my coach even after like like how do you manage that abundance of free time that you currently have in your in your day. So it is critical that you dedicate certain amount of time to your conversations with you know with recruitment agencies certain amount of time to network meet people that you used to work with because it's important not your relationship are not tied to work right it's

important to build something outside of work and a lot of people make this you know this this ter mistake is like when they're out of work they forget about everything and then when back in their new jobs like oh yeah I haven't seen you in you know in um in six months So I had a sort of clear structure to my day and I think that really helped me to to manage that sort of time and sort of stress uh that I was putting myself through. >> Yeah, makes a makes a lot of sense. One of the things that really struck with me, you said

as a woman you have to be perfect, perfect parent, perfect exec, perfect traveler. Why is that you think? And and and when is that that you first kind of started being okay with that? It's can't all be perfect. And you know, you almost gave yourself permission to let some of that go. >> Well, I still push myself, right? Because I do want a lot of things to be sort of perfect at work and in the house. But sometimes you just have you just have to let it go. The moment you realize that, you know, you can't do it all. And at certain point of time, it's

not that you're being lazy. It's just you have a certain amount of energy or mental capacity to deal at this point of time. And it's acceptance that it's okay, right? You know, uh talking about the home, what is going to happen if you're not going to make your meal from scratch, your dinner from scratch, or actually getting going to get it from the supermarket or get a takeaway? Nothing. Nothing. Okay, you're probably going to get a couple of calories extra, but but that's it. But the time is going to save you, right? The stress is going to take from you. It's enormous. So, choose your

battles, I think, wisely. That's the key to save. You can't be everywhere at the same time. You have to have sacrifices and only by being able to choose sort of what are you going to sacrifice at this point of time to be a better version of yourself or to be a better leader or better be uh sort of more switch on tomorrow. I think this is a real feature right to the skill set that a lot of lot of leaders need to have. I think running up is is a great thing for me but there are other different sports right that help you to release

that stress. What I like about running, I started running marathons and it kept me motivated but also kept me disciplined because there is no way you can run a distance like that without training consistently throughout the whole period of time and then the life gets in the way, right? You know, there's a little of work you're training. So, how you're able to implement those training sessions into your routine and you have to be consistent. I try to run as far as possible because I know that I have to come back. There is no really way to to skip it. So you start you know your

mind is speeding right and you think about this and that and by sort of third fourth kilometers I kind of etc. Your mind clears and you end you end up just somewhere like I don't know in a in a in a free space and uh you just catch yourself in the moment that oh I was here and now I'm there. And then when I when I catch myself in moments like this, I realize, okay, I managed to relax. I managed to disconnect with my problems, disconnect with whatever is happening, then my mind is absolutely clear. So when I get back to work, I feel more

energized and I feel completely objective because all the emotions, right, they're out the sweat. Like this is the other thing that I think most of us learn about exercise is that very often when we're in a high stress situation or a period of you know where we need to power through or we need to solve problems our natural instinct is to just keep working right to just stay at it to just power through and when you actually go out do something else as you go running you go exercise whatever that's when all the ideas all of a sudden start happening right that's where all of

a sudden you solve that problem that would have otherwise taken you 4 hours now you've solved it an hour because you've been exercising for an hour. >> You're absolutely right. And yeah, and sometimes when I'm when I'm sort of stressed and sort of overworked, I sort of get headache and I'm just not able to think straight, right? It's just, you know, it's overwhelming. So take a break, just go to bed and then do it in the morning because you're kind of like pushing through unnaturally sort of your body to do something that your body doesn't want to do. And it's good to challenge yourself, but

listen to your body and the outcome, right? You're going to get after that when it's when it's rested, right? When it's full of energy is going to give you more things back than at the time when you're really trying to push for the resources that it hasn't got. So, I think as we all get older, right, we really need to learn to listen to our bodies. >> Yes, for sure. Uh and learn to recover. >> Yeah. >> Hey, I want to change gears a bit. Uh a couple of really quick questions. Um, first thing that comes to mind, right? So, first question from for me. What's

the leadership advice everybody gives that you think is absolute [ __ ] >> I don't think I've ever received any benefit or even sometimes when I was given an advice just and let it go and I found it difficult to let certain things go and I was still fighting for it. It was actually really good advice because, you know, I was maybe reading the room. So, I don't think I was ever given a bad bad advice. >> That's a good answer. I like that. >> All right. Okay. >> All right. Second of all, what's the mistake that you keep making even though you know better? Could

be personal or professional. >> I want everything being done right now as soon as possible to its best ability. And I know that's not possible and I keep on telling myself, but my my first intention is always like, let's do everything. And then I calm myself down, you know, and put in perspectives. Okay, let's let's break it into pieces. Like it's not we're not we're not going to get it all done, but I want it all. It's all nothing. >> Yeah. Okay, makes sense. Um, what's the one thing that you would like to be remembered for? >> Being a good leader. >> What does that

mean for you? >> People thinking that I will always have their back. Someone that can stay true to itself in most difficult situations, but also someone that has challenged stereotypes, challenged sort of traditional ways of working and broke sort of the boundaries and the silos. >> And my last quick question, what's the hardest decision that you've had to make in your career and what did you learn from it? I leave the job that I love because at that time there was the right decision but it also was the most difficult when I left Kindred. >> I have one last question for you that I think

will help people that are listening. If you if you could go all the way back to you know your 20 27 year old self and tell yourself one thing what would it be? >> Keep on doing what you're doing. Right. Never give up. Never stop. >> Thank you so much for the podcast. It's been amazing. >> Thank you very much. Thank you for joining me on the i Gaming Leader podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iamingleer.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and I hope to see you next week.

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