Mark Schmidt: There’s Always a Way Out: Mark Schmidt’s Story of Recovery and Redemption

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I don't know how I'm still here. I got to a point where I just thought that I wasn't really good enough to be around any longer and I couldn't see any good that I could bring to this world. I I kind of despised the way that I'd miss time with my my kids, the excuses I would make not to hang out with family. So, I went away to a facility called White River Manor, which is effectively a mental health addiction retreat. Five-star lodge, you know, only 10 little cottages with 10 clients from around the world. I was there for a month away from the distractions

and the pressures of my outside life. It made me kind of re-evaluate what was important to me and how I needed to to get out of there. There is a huge amount of people that have reached out to me in terms of the stresses that they're facing, the problems that they're facing, whether it be from a substance, alcohol, whether it's mental health, being overburdened at work or in family life and dealing with the constant pressure. I know for a fact I can't avoid going to bars and events, but I'm going to be straight up with with everybody and just say, "Listen, I'm sober. I don't

drink. I don't mind if you have a drink, but I just want to put it out there." And it's been received incredibly well. You know, the support from from people has been has been fantastic. I think you you go to somebody that you trust and that you respect and that will treat you with respect to. And any any one of us has, you know, somebody like that in our life and just say, you know, these are the thoughts that I'm having. These are the issues that I'm facing. I just need to share it with with somebody. Welcome to the I Gaming Leader podcast where we

uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host Leo Judkins and as an ex eye gaming director turned performance coach. I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Intane 365, Flutter and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So, with that being said, let's dive in. Hey everybody, welcome to the I Gaming Leader. I am joined here today by Mark Smith, who is the MD for every matrix, been in the industry for 17 years, and yeah, Mark, uh, really

excited to talk to you today. Hey, Leo. Thanks for having me. Um, yeah, all good. Really, really happy to to be joining you today. Obviously, we've had, you know, quite a bit of communication over the last few months and I've been following what you've been doing with, you know, our gaming leader and hearing the feedback from relevant leaders in the industry and people across the board. Super excited to kind of share my journey, which is slightly different to to some um but also to kind of just be on this platform and be associated with some of the, you know, amazing people that you've had in

the past. So, thanks for having me. It's been so good talking to you again. just you know you've shared quite a bit on on different podcasts but for anybody that doesn't know you would you mind kind of talk a little bit about your journey uh in the industry over the last 16 17 years and sure um so I kind of stumbled into the industry um by chance really but looking back at it that was destiny in a way and that I went to school with Owen Heer's son who Owen Heer is the founder and owner of Hollywood Bets South Africa's biggest um you know BTOC

brand sponsored Brenford in the Premier League, you know, huge huge brand, massive business and started working for for Owen in the Hollywood team and moved into the trading office at Hollywood Bets. So that that office was basically a group of mates from school. You know, we we partied hard, worked relatively hard, but it was a it was it was a trial and error kind of process. You know, we where we we learned that making mistakes cost real money, but we learned very quickly how to to fix those mistakes. absolutely amazing bunch of guys and you know very fortunate today that not only did I go

to school with most of these guys but we've also continued our careers you know in the B2B world so when we go across to different gaming shows events etc we all kind of stay in touch and it's a really nice little community that we you know we've kept and we use that community to kind of share ideas and ask for advice and even though we we competitors in many senses that there's an open communication and helping out which is you know huge for me so after Hollywood I was there for about four or five years I think I got approached by Sport Radar and then

I joined Greg Parsons. Greg had a huge impact in my career. Taught me the the commercial side of of you know of the the gaming space and Greg and I went into Africa and basically you know started selling the sport radar and bet radar feeds across Africa. One stage I think we had this difficult number on it but I think there were close to over 100 different partners within Africa that we signed up in that you know four or five year period. a huge amount of respect for Greg, but learned from the ground up going out there, going out to parts of Africa that I

never even thought I would visit or be associated with, learning about different cultures, how a deal is done specific to each country, learning to be patient, which has always been a big problem for myself, but yeah, you learn to what's expected, what's expected. And it was a an amazing experience with Greg and, you know, amazing mentor for me in my career. So I left Sport Radar because I was approached by IMG and that for me was kind of going from Sport Radar which I thought was this you know absolutely amazing massive company but going into IMG where they basically touched every part of sports you

know licensing rights holders broadcasting etc. and IMG had started up ING Arena which has just been now acquired by Sport Radar and headed up their operations and sales and commercial efforts for Africa and the Middle Middle East. So the growth of that business was was really something that took me by surprise. It seemed like month there was something new that was was dropping in. But it reached a point with with ING where I realized that I'd kind of hit my ability to you know penetrate the market in various respects. I'd gone to all the tier ones that could afford the services, the tier twos, etc. And

it became quite difficult to to move on and, you know, kind of push what I needed to. And then I was approached by Proate Gaming/Sporting Tech, and they were looking to get into Africa, which was something that really excited me. So they they had a platform that had been really strong within the gray markets. So I helped a guy called Tommy Malloy, who's the chief product officer, great guy in the industry, too. became very good friends and kind of worked very closely with Tommy to to build out the the African product from a you know platform infocation etc. And that that was a steep learning

curve and then I stayed with sporting tech again for another four or five years. Towards the end of my time with sporting tech kind of hit a bit of a serious wobble. My mental health hits is something that I had struggled with for you know my whole adult life and even into parts of high school where it was something that had always taken medication for it but it was feel like I was getting better then you know drop off it and then not continue it. So it was always kind of these continuous hurdles that I was facing you know every 6 7 8 months or

so. But with sporting tech they they reached a point where the the management at the time there was a lot that the employees were a bit disillusioned about what was going on. There were tech issues at the time. They had very big clients within Brazil that needed a lot of requirements, but then also meant that we couldn't on board new clients in other territories. So, you know, as a sales commercial person, I was feeling that pressure. You know, I've got to bring a business, but then you're also hamstrung by what the the business can do. And I kind of spiraled out of control very quickly

where, you know, I was going out every every night. I'd never been somebody that would drink, I would say, every day, but then it came to the point where I would have a drink. I'd say, "Okay, it's 400 p.m. Let me have a drink at my desk." You know, a beer would turn into 10 beers. Or, you know, would turn into the hot stuff quite quickly. And then as the as the time went on, those drinks were happening earlier in the day, too. Um, initially I suppose for me I didn't think it really was a problem because I was still able to be a dad, be

a husband in my mind at least and I was around for, you know, bedtime, bath time, etc. Although I was there in body, I wasn't there in mind, you know, I had like all these demons going on and I didn't I felt so much guilt in terms of the way I was dealing with things that I didn't didn't share it with anyone. I reached a point where things just got progressively and progressively worse. And if I look back at now, I kind of balanced on the edge for a very long time. And then what effectively tipped me over was I went through to to Mexico

to do a deal with a massive operator there. And I ended up staying for a week and I spent I think it was 3 or 4 days in San Diego by myself. And what I did was just kind of drink my way through that period that I was there. I remember waking up in the one morning and my room my hotel room was just you know covered with bottles and I was like this this has got to change. Um and I actually decided then to to get sober. So Monday was this this last Monday was one year sober for me. But even though I decided

to get sober, I still had these mental challenges you know in terms of depression. The anxiety was getting like crippling for me too. And as I'd lost that, I think looking back at it now, as I'd lost that kind of outlet in terms of alcohol to kind of take away the the so-called edge that I was, you know, that that that I had, I just kind of spiraled more and more out of control in terms of these thoughts where there's no doubt that it I don't know how I'm still here. You know, I got to a point where I just thought that I wasn't really

good enough to be around any longer. I hated myself if I'm completely honest. And I couldn't see any good that I could bring to this world. I I kind of despised the way that I'd miss time with my my kids, the excuses I would make not to hang out with family. My career obviously was at the stage of Sporting Tech where they're they're incredibly kind and and understanding with me and they we became very good friends, you know, not myself and the new management that came in and that's something I'll always be incredibly grateful for. Guy like Tom, Colin Mcdana, Jack Smith at Bantech, absolute

legends, just all around good people and they were hung in there with me to to help me. But I was telling them one thing like, "Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah, I'll get through this. I'll get through this. And it got to a point where the one day I I kind of just been thinking about it. And I decided that, you know, this is it. Like the time's now for me to go. And I planned how I was going to do it. It's it's still something that I haven't really dealt with, I think, entirely. There's a lot of shame still from my side around that. But, you

know, I've got three three beautiful daughters. I kissed my girls goodbye. I went out. I kissed my my wife goodbye. And I had this whole plan of how I was going to do it. And it it felt almost surreal in a way because had such clarity in terms of I felt almost at peace in terms of what I was going to do because they had been on my mind for for so long. But then a few things kind of fell in place to kind of stop that from happening. And then I got home and you know I just kind of I think I just kind

of melted down. It's the only way I can really put it. And you know all that weight kind of dropped off me. And my wife knew something was was up. She obviously knew something was up there after that before that and I just kind of broke down. It's here. If I look at how I'm still here today, it's I'd say 90% down to her and the the support that that she's she's shown me throughout. She was very hard on me in terms of getting the recovery that I that I needed and the the support that I needed. and she basically had to run the household

while this was all going on and while I went away to kind of get my mind right and back to where I needed to be. But she showed me absolute love throughout in terms of somebody that sets an example to what it means to be a parent, a leader and somebody who loves for me she's she's absolutely amazing. So yeah, I kind of had this period after the sporting tech they're very kind of I say very understand absolutely amazing in the process. everyone in the company. I lived there on good terms and basically it got to a point where I just I knew I couldn't

work and continue to do what I needed to do. And I explained it that I'd spoken to my therapist and I I needed to get away and just have a break from the industry and get my mind right. And they granted me that and we separated on good terms with always understanding if I wanted to come back, I could if I wanted to. But I always knew that I think I needed something new and something fresh to start again to kind of, you know, a clean break and and move on with with new ways of how I wanted to to live my life. So I

went away to a facility called White River Manor, which is effectively a mental health addiction retreat. Absolutely amazing place up in just outside the the Krueger in South Africa. Five-star lodge, you know, only 10 little cottages with 10 clients from around the world. I was there for a month and I could tell that the change that I made in that month, it seemed absolutely huge to me at the time. But all it really did was kind of give me a break away from the distractions and the pressures of my outside life and it made me kind of re-evaluate what was important to me and how

I needed to to get out of there. And you know, a month in terms of recovery is is still very very new and and young. um this this stage now of being a dad and being completely honest with myself about what I needed to do to continue supporting my family and being in learning to accept myself and love myself again was a huge part of it too. So yeah, it's bit a bit of a story past. For a long time there were a select few within the industry that kind of knew my story. These people were all very close to me, but there were a

lot that obviously didn't didn't know and had no idea. And when they would see me going out drinking or whatever, I was always known as the the guy who would stay till the very end and always be up for a good time and for a party. And yeah, so it's it's it's interesting when people now saying like, well, I didn't really expect that. I've known you for 10 years or so. And a lot of people have come forward and kind of said, look, I've had the same, you know, the same issues, too. And it's I think from that people are very very good at at

hiding exactly what's going on and and displaying what they want the world to see. So yeah, in a in a nutshell that's that's basically um how I got here now. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. It's um yeah I you know it's it's such a such a journey you've been on and I'm really proud of you for for sharing all of it so openly and especially after like you said you know there were only very few people that knew about it and some of these things people probably haven't even heard about amazing amazing story so I'm really really glad that you're sharing it Mark because

as we've spoken about before one of the big things is that in different kind of I don't know severity levels. Many many people experience these things right in different ways. But I'd like to talk a little bit about that feeling of being by yourself and having like that you're the only one and that our generation where we've got to man up and we've got to fix it ourselves because we're tough guys. Can you talk to me a little bit about that and how that showed up and what's changed and how that's benefited you? I think that the big the big thing is um control. can

also use the term imposttor syndrome and for a lot of my career there's there's a part of it where if I look back at it now clearly like I I've progressed through my career and through life quite quickly you know I've hit the goals that I've I've had to achieve when I got there I've always felt like oh like am I actually good enough to do this like you know have they made a mistake am I the right person but in all honesty I've always found a way to to get it done whether it's the right way or the wrong way but you know having

that control to to manage everything becomes all-encompassing So I would always have to if I'd go into position the team around me I would have to check to see also I suppose micromanage people too which not great for anyone working with me at the time but check and see what was going on so I could see that was done to the right way and so I could kind of tell myself all right it's been done it's okay and keep going but it's a very lonely place to be there right and because when you're in that position comes very hard to ask for help when especially

when you kind of have to have your finger on the pulse of everything else that's going on. So, you know, I spoke about my wife early on and she runs her own business. She runs a very successful photography business that she runs where she can shoot weddings around the world and, you know, big clients that here in South Africa and abroad and her pressures are very different to my pressures. And one thing that I'd never been very good at is communicating the pressures that I was feeling. So, I would just say, you know, look, you don't understand. You don't know what it's like. And then

I would kind of isolate myself away and just kind of go out with people and leave her at home with the kids, which you know, it's incredibly sad to to think what what's happened. But also happy that I'm able to acknowledge and see that that this can't happen again. But that time away was like being out and having a drink and you know, not being there to face everything else that was going on. Then I would have to get in a taxi back home and I would have to think about what I was what I'd done, what I was facing, and what I had to

do. the next day. So I would wake up hung over. I would be terrible to be around. I would be unreasonable in other parts. I would know that I was being unreasonable and that kind of those feelings just become, you know, more and more like they just compound over time in terms of the way I treat people and the way I feel about myself too. So going back to the imposttor syndrome side of things is that I I've always wanted to impress and I've always wanted to feel the need to be people to be impressed of what I'm putting forward. But that pressure is sometimes

it just it just can't work. And you know that pressure that you put on yourself or I put on myself was you know in sales it's all about reaching your budget and hitting your numbers and you hit those numbers and cool then you move on to the next thing then you move on to the next thing and it's just a neverending cycle of of what's going on and being alone was was was difficult during that time. I like I had an amazing wife to to support me through it. And I saw you posted about being away on on holiday with your with your family and

those thoughts that you have and absolutely being able to disconnect from from work and actual family time. In all honesty, I I don't think up until, you know, the last few months in my professional career or since being a dad, you know, 8 years ago, I've I've been able to have that disconnect where I'm just like, okay, I'm off. I'm focused on my family. They're also really important. At the end of the day, your family are the reason why you're working, right? For nearly all of us, you know, so if you can't look after them, what is the point to look after yourself? So yeah, it

becomes a very lonely place and so the saleserson, you know, you're on the road a lot. There's a hell of a lot of time when you're by yourself and those those times by yourself, that's when reality really kicks in. It's very hard to, you know, to to kind of for me, it became very hard to accept who you are, become. That's so true, isn't it? And I was talking to one of my um executive culture clients earlier about how one of the hard things in business development, right, and in sales is that a lot of these deals are made at 3:00 in the morning, you

know, in some shady place where we don't want to be seen. And I think it's such a that is very typical in gaming, right? It's very typical around conferences. So when you have a certain inclination and like you're in that environment, that makes it very easy to to slip, right? And I how would you advise people to deal with that? People that perhaps feel that the way that they've been dealing with things with alcohol or with their their personal lives that that they feel that that's no longer sustainable. They want to make make a change, but they don't quite know how to because this is

the way they've always done it and they're afraid that if they change things, everything might be lost. Sure. I can speak from from my experience, right? And I gave these exact thoughts and I hid it for so long in terms of what I was actually thinking to the outside world that you know everybody thought that amazing family, amazing job, everything looked great. So the proper Instagram lifestyle, right? But you just take a peek behind the curtains very very different. And I was I was always nervous for people to actually see what was behind those curtains. But what I've absolutely seen is that speaking up. There's

so many people in the same position as as what I was. I'm not saying thank everyone, but there is a huge amount of people that have reached out to me in terms of the stresses that they're facing, the problems that they're facing, whether it be from a substance, alcohol, whether it's mental health, being overburdened at work or in family life and dealing with the constant pressure. If you do the same thing continuously, I know it's very cliche. There's no change is ever going to come. You might get a change for a couple of days or a week, but you're not going to have long-lasting change. And

you don't you can't expect to to change absolutely everything overnight. like any good thing, it takes time to build. And for me, one of the biggest worries I had about going back into the industry and, you know, being sober and everything else was exactly made around about where deals are done and how Yeah. and how I'm going to deal with that. And I just I said to to my wife, look, I'm just going to be straight up about it with with the people. Like I I know for a fact I can't I can't avoid going to bars and events, but I'm going to be, you

know, straight up with with everybody and just saying, "Listen, I'm sober. I don't drink. I don't mind if you have a drink, but you know, like I just want to put it out there." And it's been received incredibly well. You know, the support from from people has been has been fantastic. I also know that like there's there's limitations in terms of what I can and can't do. So going out for a for a dinner that with drinks, etc., I know that there's I need to kind of say like look I'm guys I'm out of here at 10 or whatever it may be which does the

job and kind of lay down those boundaries but also very fortunate enough that I've built an incredible network over the years that a lot of these guys that are that are in the network that I have trust me I trust them you know we've done repeat business over the years based on that trust that we have. I think it would be quite different now for me if I was just entering the industry now um and not really having the network that that I do have. Yeah, it's it's about boundaries and you know knowing what you are there for and what you want to achieve you

know in terms of what I might say on social media and LinkedIn and be outspoken. I speak my mind and I speak what what I believe and the the point with that is that I think speaking up in about what I'm going through also provides safety for myself so people know my story. So in one sense very selfish but also in the other sense I know that it's it offers kind of a lifeline for somebody else that might be out going through the same thing and the first time I did it where I kind of I say came clean to the industry I was taken

back by the messages that that I got you know from DMs from from people and I'm no therapist but you know I've got a bit of background and you know how to really stuff things up. Um, and I was I was I was able to, you know, listen and and provide a supportive ear and, you know, just say, "Look, well done for reaching out and things can get better and they will get better if you, you know, if you do take it seriously and you want to do change and this is what's worked for me, but I suggest that you you speak to a professional

and, you know, just be open with those people around you." And it's been great to see that kind of move forward and and progress into different parts of of of the industry. And one of the things that I'm looking to set up now is kind of a a support group for our gaming people that are going through these challenges whether it's drink or mental health. And I suppose I spoke uh about it I think it was on the gambling files website with Finton and John where you know you look at the pressures of ice for example SBC Lisbon or any of the pig shows around

the world and the expectations that you have there for people that are sober battling through these parts. It would just be nice to have a kind of a group of people that are in the industry that we know for sure that are going through these problems that can just be there to say like, "Hey guys, I'm struggling. Can anyone meet up for a coffee before the show starts this morning or, you know, you know, free this night for for a dinner and then, you know, early night or whatever it may be." And I think that that just kind of the more people that we can

reach out to and help and avoid a situation that nearly happened to me, I think for me that would would mean it would be successful if we can just help one person going forward. So, you're already doing it, Mark. you're already doing it by just talking about it. And I think because that's the key, right? The key is for people to go, "No, that's exactly what I'm feeling. That's exactly what I'm going through." And it might not be, like I said earlier, it might not be to the same level, but the thoughts and feelings and behaviors on some sort of scale might be very similar. And

and very often the problem is that we're that we feel we're alone. And just being able to recognize that you're not the only one and that it's okay to talk about. But I want to touch on something that you said which I think is is really important here. All of this is kind of comes from fear, right? Fear as in imposter syndrome is fear of being found out and then you're micromanaging because you're fearful that somebody's going to see that you shouldn't actually be in that position and you're working harder than everybody else just to prove that you do belong there. And but also fear

of change is often a reason why people go to the brink. let it get really really bad because they have feel that they perhaps are a certain character. they're the entertainment of the night and if they would change if they would stop drinking completely for example who's left you know and how how would people perceive that and so that that's why from that fear of okay I'm going to be seen differently is why people let it escalate all the way to serious breakdown and and and obviously we want to help people not get there and help people create behavior change well before that hey if

you're a VP a director founder or executive and I gaming and you want to achieve sustainable high performance with without sacrificing your personal life or your well-being, then the i gaming leader mastermind might be your kind of thing. It is a highly vetted community in which we work together with other I gaming leaders in the industry to achieve that sustainable high performance because leadership in I gaming can be really lonely and isolating when you've got the right people around you it can make such a difference to your performance your productivity and your personal life so if that's something you want to know a little bit

more about head over to iame ingleer.com and apply to join. So, how do you see that from the people that have reached out to you, Mark, from you telling your story and and people going, "Wow, that's that's, you know, I'm I'm struggling with that as well." Are those some of the things that you see coming up as well? And if so, what's what are what are some of the things people are doing and perhaps working for them? What I've seen is that it's it's across the board, you know, from sea level execs, some people that I never even thought I would be in communication with

to sales manager to people that are in product. It's across the board and there's certain generations I think that understand what needs to to be done and I suppose in terms of approaching the need to to ask for help and and being really fearless in terms of adversity and and putting things out there and being accepting to to change etc and looking at ways to better themselves. But if I look at my generation and older, you know, we we've grown up with kind of you just you just get it done. You don't you don't ask for help and yeah, you power through it and you

know the white knuckling and all of that and you don't show fear and you don't show that anything's really bothering you and there's only so many amount of time that you can keep doing that before it kind of runs out and you get to a point like you said where you've actually got no runway left anymore. You are absolutely done. And from a South African perspective, males here are still very much like you you just kind of bash through it and you get it done and you don't really ask for help. I always had the help. I always had it there, but I also felt

that if I had to ask for help, I would be seen differently and I'd be seen almost as weaker than than I wanted to be seen as. So that was a fear I suppose for from my side. The biggest fear I have now is that I know that there are friends of mine within the industry that are still kind of grappling with the same things that I grappled with over the years. And it might get to the point where it's too late for them, which is obviously really scary for me, too. And I can see it happening, you know, and like I just want to

say that if if I'm able to get to a better point where I'm now and I know there's a lot of work that still needs to be done, I know that anyone can do it because for me things there was really no way out in my mind. That's part of fear when you just look and look around you and you've got the beautiful house, you got the beautiful kids, the beautiful wife, you know, great job, but you just can't see a way of of ever finding happiness or being accepted again. And I I was in that place. I managed to somehow get out. And you

know, it's it's been bloody hard, don't get me wrong. But you there is always a way to to get through it. And I think removing that that part of that fear and that thought process for people, for me, just to understand it and maybe just kind of think about it for more than a couple of seconds, if that can help a handful of people, then that's for me that would just be be amazing. The advice I would always give people is just get help. You know, just get someone to help. But it doesn't necessarily have to be a therapist, can be a friend, can be

whatever. It doesn't really matter. But get some help because when you're stuck in your own head, like I had I had exactly the same thing. I was drinking every night and I I didn't know how to give that up because I thought if and going out all the time and I I thought, okay, if I'm going to give that up, then what do I have left? You know, what do I have left in life? and and how it just work and or if I stop working earlier and try to switch off like they're going to find me out and that I don't belong here, right? And

you're not going to solve it in your own head. That's the biggest difficulty that people don't see is that okay, if you don't see a way out, you're stuck in your own bottle, right? And so, of course, you can't read the label. Brain surgeon is not going to operate on their own head either. It's not really going to work. So I think just getting an outside view is such a game changer. When was the first time that happened for you, Mark? I'd love to hear that. I would say I was about 20 4 25. I had a really bad experience with the therapist at the

time. Then the advice given was really not helpful to me any in any way. And I think it was more along the lines of of tough love than support. And I left feeling like um why did I put myself through this? Um I say the last year year or so and um I'd been seeing a therapist here in my local local town who had been good and kind of like just kind of settled me down in terms of like made me kind of reevaluate what I was thinking and slowed me down to a point where I could start kind of thinking things through without making

these snapshot decisions. The real change for me was seeing a guy I called Michael Ferrron who was who specialized. He's an addiction specialist. And so he could see straight through everything that I was saying to him. There was no ways I could trick him into anything. He he saw it straight away and he he calls a spade a spade. And I've got an incredibly frank and open relationship with him and I see him very often with him. He puts in very kind of black flag mechanisms to to help me kind of get over these hurdles. to talk about what what I'm facing, what is real

pressure, what isn't real pressure. Um, sometimes I'm convincing myself that this really needs to get done when actually it doesn't need to be. And you know, also convincing myself that in order to be kind of a a good employee, I need to be busy the whole time. And you know, what is is it productive? Is it actually given value or is it just kind of filling a diary up with with backto-back meetings all day to produce something? So, a lot of those kind of thought processes and like the thoughts that I had had before all kind of changed in a lot of respects. And it's

been incredibly freeing to me in terms of how I structure my day, structure my week. There's still certain things that I'm I'm I get right for a period of time and then I kind of fall back on and then when things are kind of going haywire again, he will say to me, "Okay, but you're not doing the following like we agreed." I'm like, "Oh, okay, cool." Like, "We we get it and can you know make the yeah, we make the make the change." So, it's been it's been good. I used to dread the the drive. It's about an hour drive into his his practice. And

I used to hate having to drive there because I knew that I was going to be absolutely grilled by have you done this, have you done that? But it's actually got to the point now where I wouldn't say I enjoy the sessions, but in a weird way, I do because it's it's challenging and I'm left with a kind of new way to to think about life and approach things differently. And, you know, I can also challenge him on what he says to me, which is which is great. That's one of the big things, Mark, right? Is that we have this tendency to just kind of

lie to ourselves and we know we're doing it, but we're and and then we're great at lying to everybody else about it as well. And sometimes you start having these questions which are really normal questions like, do I actually have a problem or not? And and none of these things in my mind anyway are binary. It's never a yes or no. It's actually when it shows up as an issue in your life and you're feeling that this is the thing that you're doing is not sustainable, then you've got an issue. How you label that issue doesn't really matter, but it's an issue that you need

addressing, right? And I think the best thing you can do is actually having someone like you're talking about now, somebody puts a mirror in front of you and she's through the [ __ ] and actually, you know, calls a spade a spade and goes, "Well, that's not necessarily true. It's uncomfortable, but none of none of our growth happens inside of our comfort zone." Right? So just my last question mark really is um for for anybody that finds themselves in these thoughts as well of of you know not knowing how to get out feeling that that the things that they are doing is just not a

lifestyle that they want to keep on living but they're fearful of of creating those changes and what people might think. What's the very first step that they could take? Easy, simple, quick thing that they could do. I think you you go to somebody that you trust and that you respect and that will treat you with respect to and any any one of us has, you know, somebody like that in our life and just say, you know, these are the thoughts that I'm having. These are the issues that I'm facing. I just need to share it with with somebody. It doesn't have to be a big, you

know, big speech. It can just say from from my side, I'm I'm not sure what to do. For me, as you said earlier, speaking to a professional and reaching out to somebody who actually can assist you is the best way to do it. but for keeping it in, it's just never going to solve anything and you're never going to be able to do it yourself. So, the world's changed a hell of a lot. There are so many different ways that you can get help now. You can get through it in various ways. There's there's so many different ways you can get help. And again, think

that just kind of remembers that there is always a way out. There's always a way to to get better. There's always a way to, you know, to get through what what you're doing. And I know some some people might be thinking like, "Oh, it's easier said than done." But like I said earlier, if I was able to do it, trust me, you you can definitely do it, too. Um, you know, from from my side, again, I'm not a therapist, so I'm not there to help. But if if somebody just wants to reach out and say, you know, I want to chat, it stays confidentially between

the two of us. And I'm not going to be able to tell you how to fix your life, but I can just be a friend or, you know, somebody in support to to help. But biggest thing, don't don't keep it in. There's a lot of people to go out that will be there that will be willing to help you more than you actually you will ever really believe. Love it, Mark. And don't wait for the right time. It's the last one after because the right time will actually never happen. Absolutely. Well, the right time there is a right time which is was yesterday was the

best time. The time after that was today. So, you know. All right, Mark. Hey, thanks a lot, mate. really uh really appreciate you sharing and opening up and you're a you're such a great example for for so many people in the industry that that struggle with these thoughts and feelings and behaviors and I mean today you've given them a great way to actually start tackling some of those. So um yeah again if anybody's struggling or feeling that they're stuck with any of the things that Mark spoke about he's please reach out to him loads of experience in this area and um yeah happy to have

a confidential conversation. So thanks again Mark. Yeah pleasure and thanks thanks for having me and thanks very much for having this platform for people to speak up about the real human side of of the industry. Thank you for joining me on the i Gaming Leader podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iamingleer.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week. [Music]

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