Paris Smith: Facing Scandals and Industry Wars with Paris Smith

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I love crunch time. 3 seconds left. We're down by two. We need three points. Give me the ball. I'm ready for it. You know, and then it got too big. The US government thought, hm, let's try to put a hammer on this. Let's try to slow it down instead of regulating. It is what it is. It's part of gaming, but it's also part of being at the top of your game. It's just a bit shameful that the way to get ahead is to push somebody down. Explain to everybody this is where we were. This is why it's not working. and this is what we need

to do. These are the teams that are going to be impacted and we're going to try to help you find a job. They can admit when they're wrong. That is such a basic fundamental that is so non-existent. And I feel like those leaders that will take that accountability and pivot and shift whenever they have to to continue to thrive. That's the golden ticket right there. Welcome to the I Gaming Leader Podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host Leo Judkins and as an ex eye gaming director turned performance coach I've worked with over

200 leaders from companies like Intane 365 Flutter and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said let's dive in. Welcome everybody to the I Gaming Leader. Today I'm joined by Paris Smith who uh most of you will know. Paris been in the gaming industry for a very very long time. Previous CEO for Pinnacle of course now living in Kurissau and just wanted to welcome you to the podcast and say hi. Great to have you. Thank you so much. You know in

our mastermind I asked the question who has been the person that has inspired you the most and Julia from Global Gaming Women said it's Paris. Got a huge fan crush. So um really glad that you're uh you're here. where I wanted to start. Paris, we've spoken a lot about kind of upbringing and how, you know, our environment and the people around us really shape the level of performance that we have. Right. I think it's something that most people perhaps know but don't really design around them. And I I'd love to start with your story about basketball and and how that environment has really helped you

in in achieving high performance. So, it's interesting. You know, I have been a huge basketball player since I was very young. And I got into it because all the guys in the neighborhood were basketball players. And I was very young. And they would always say, "Come on, let's play uh the NE boys and the doctors, you know, we always had those families." And it was so interesting because recently I had somebody visiting me and they brought up to me something I'd completely forgotten. Every summer, every day at lunch, I would play basketball with my brother's friends. A lot of them played college basketball. They were

very, very competitive. And they they let me play. I was like 13 years old. And you know, they would not be easy on me. And he had asked me the question after reminding me of this, you know, why do you think you're able to succeed in this really mansled environment all these years? And I thought, "Oh my goodness." Because I've always had the support of men. I've always like they taught me, you know, you don't get it easy. You don't get a break. You don't sit and whine. Oh, you can't do that to me. Oh, don't clothesline me cuz I'm a girl. Those types of

things. Um, of course, they were all very protective. But, you know, it was it started with that. And then I also had where I was able to start playing at a younger age because my dad advocated for letting the girls play pee-wee basketball, right? So, you know, it was starting with that, then going and playing with these guys, and then when I would play in the season, it was so easy. You know, I I was playing with girls my age, and in the summer, I was playing with guys that are six years older than me and completely experienced. So, um, I was, uh, very competitive. I

scored a lot of points. I mean, you know, I don't know if I'd be considered a ball hog, but I was kind of like, I shoot, you rebound. And then I went into college and played as well. And there's just, you know, I went to many, many competitive camps and recruiting camps, and just that environment, right, of high performance, always doing your best, you're as strong as your weakest link, all these fundamental kind of values of leadership. I took those into my career and I think and also growing up in a very small town. I've always had a sense of community. So my career path

brought me the first job with WWTS with Bill Scott. He was that guy who different from everybody didn't look at anything as competition. He's like, "Let's bring them in. Let's explain it. I don't want them to have to figure it out the way we had to figure it out, you So then I got to know everybody in the industry and then I go into Pinnacle and then I created more of a community, more of a high performant culture environment from a leadership perspective in Pinnacle. So I've always had this really neat path throughout my my career and my journey that it's just very consistent and

always drawing back to the beginning. And I love to say never forget where you come from. So, I'd love to hear a little bit more about kind of that high performance culture. And specifically about kind of your you're playing basketball against people that are much better, you know, stronger, faster, and I think often that resistance, right, that pressure you've got to push through that pushes you to perform at at your peak, right? But very often as leaders, I think we make it easy for people. We try to help them because we want to be kind and we want to be nice, right? And we want

to support people. But it's actually in the struggle where where peak performance happens in in my mind anyway. So I'd love to hear from you if you feel that that's the same thing and how you how you think about you know establishing a culture of high performance you know. Well first of all I think that high performance you know there's an evolution of the industry. So way when it was easier you know it was hard to find many payment solutions things like that but the general business you have a bunch of phone clerks you train them. Yeah, I'm going into sports betting here before casino

was even active. And as long as you showed up and you worked those long hours because of course you had to start at 9 in the morning and go till 11 or 12 at night. You know, everybody was giving beautiful lunches at work to encourage people to work 15 hours a day with no that's a culture of you want people to be dedicated and loyal, which is great. But then the whole tide changed and everything became more competitive. Everything became online and you know that's where at the sale of um a pinnacle to Magnus Edmund I knew he wanted that high performant culture in order

to optimize the value of the organization. So I think having that ability for myself in particular I love crunch time. 3 seconds left. We need three points. Give me the ball. we're down by two. I'm ready for it. And I find in my teams, the teams that I've connected with the most throughout my entire, it's 30 years this year career. Um the ones that have gone through either structural changes that maybe weren't executed in the right way by the ownership or board or you know, um Pinnacles had a couple difficult times with regard to when we pulled out of the US market. Then there was

some of the owners were implicated, not charged. So, you know, during those moments, it's like, do we fall apart and go, "Oh my gosh, these guys are gone. What are we going to do?" Instead, for me, just innately, I'm like, you know what? There's a few things that we wanted to do that they weren't really keen. Let's get them done cuz I know they're going to work and let's continue to move forward. And that was actually when we got quite a nice bump in the organization. And things started going really well, leaner, stronger. After that moment, that's when we sold to Magnus Eden. So that

high performant leadership, it is that tough love and a lot of times I found as my career progressed and I brought in higher quality, experienced people, their tolerance for that tough love was much less. Oh, she's picking on me. She doesn't like me. you know, being a woman leader, you've got, oh, she's she has favorites, you know, like I'm like a mom, whatever it might be, but the reality is my favorite people were the best performers. And my other big mantra is I want to set up people for success. And then there's when you have that in your mind for that high performance, if somebody

is not following through or they're not maybe not 100% capable of getting to the level that you need them, you see it more because you've basically done everything you can to set them up for success and it's not happening. Not all jobs are for all people. No. No. And and and that's absolutely fine. Right. I think that's I think that's one of the mistakes people make that they think uh it's the same it's the same with promotions. There's often this idea in in people's and organizations heads that the only linear path for everybody is is you know managerial and that's of course not true. Not

everybody is a manager. I think the other thing also that I love that you're saying there is just like in sports, it's about holding each other to a higher standard, right? And and really requiring more and and expect especially expecting more from from people. Has that always been the case for you when you were young? Is that an upbringing thing? Like how how did that form itself over time? You know, I think it is like I'm I'm always the overachiever. I always want to do the best. I won't say it was always like that because of course throughout the journey I went from having to

do everything myself and then all of a sudden you get really big and then you're like oh I'm kind of dropping the ball. Oh and I'm actually not even qualified. Let me bring in qualified people. So you go through that evolution, but there were moments in my career looking back that I wished that I had held people to a higher standard. And also like within cultures, we had a very competitive culture in Pinnacle. So sometimes somebody, you know, I would be a little concerned, oh, I wonder if they're going to make it and then give them the tools, etc. but they were being like bombarded

and semi ambushed. So I wasn't sure was it them or was it people that didn't like them within our team or within their culture. So it was really just a case of trying to identify at that moment. I would probably give too much grace to somebody if I didn't have the extra noise. I I would have seen it and my gut was telling me, "Oh boy, this is probably not the best hire I've ever had." However, I gave them more grace because that competitive nature throughout the organization and culture was I say ambush sabotage. I mean, they're all pretty strong words, but you know, everybody

wants to be that person that solves a big problem and gets the recognition. But the reality is when you're working together and everybody's in the highest performance within their area, that is the time that everything comes together and the success really starts to fulfill itself. Yeah, love that. Hey Paris, let me just kind of dive into that area where you said, I wish I would have held people to a higher standard in certain cases, right? Because I think what you're saying is totally normal. You you look at someone and you see that they're not perhaps performing at their best. you kind of look at the

circumstances, you think, "Ah, yeah, maybe that's the case, maybe that's happening or that's happening." Retrospectively, it's always easy to kind of judge yourself, I suppose. But what would you what would be the advice that you'd give yourself now if you'd be able to talk to yourself in that same position with that same specific person? How would you deal with it differently? Well, first, I would block out the noise around me so I could make my own decision. And then secondly, even like stronger KPIs that kind of tells the story and a lot of my biggest errors I think or things where I could have done

much better was during co well there you can't even meet people you're hiring them then somebody's going through something traumatic or they're having a different issue based on some people couldn't handle being alone some people thrive to be alone all of those differences but just looking at it more so for what it is and blocking out the noise, I definitely would have been able to make those decisions earlier and uh more accurately sooner. Yeah, it's so difficult sometimes though when you're in the middle of it when you're down that rabbit hole and all the noise is happening around you. It's just so hard to clearly

see what's going on. So completely get that. I want to talk a little bit about challenges if that's okay for you. So, one of the big things I always feel is that challenges really shape, you know, our reality. They make us grow so much, far more than our successes. And you talked about one of your biggest challenges being on the front page of the New York Times. That's a significant challenge obviously. So, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that and how you navigated that level of public scrutiny personally as well as professionally. Yeah. You know, the first part of that is why, right? Why

did that come out? It was prior to Havspa being repealed. It's very clear people were very nervous like what if it is repealed and Pinnacle would try to come into the market. Clearly, we're the market leader and there was also a lot of things going on with the allegations against the previous owners and they were fighting it. You know, not everybody loves that fight. And then out of the blue, here comes this smear campaign is what I'd really like to call it. The first part that's frustrating is the context. They contacted us and they were like, "You have your servers in America." We're like, "No, we

don't. There's no way we have servers." And we allow people to look at the web page because otherwise they're going to scrape us to death. So, we allow it to look, but you can't log in. You can't make a bet. We did everything we're supposed to. But the way they turn the context of not just that, but many, many things. Of course, if you don't understand, which the majority of people don't, it's like, "Oh my god, those horrible people." So, we've had to defend all of those different things for years and years. They're still haunting me today personally. But I think getting through that and

and you know, at that moment, you have to block out the noise and keep moving forward. one, it does a check and balance of where are you at and and getting that narrative, you know, clear internally because in the same way a lot of people didn't understand it, some of the staff are like, well, is anything they're saying in there true? It's the New York Times, right? So, we were able to to get through it. And again, I think what they wanted to accomplish, they completely accomplished. It's been a little black mark we've had to stumble through. you try to get banking and oh, we

saw this article in the New York Times and it is what it is. It's part of gaming, but it's also part of being at the top of your game. Shortly after they had other smear campaigns against other companies and they went after DraftKings and they went after Beck Chris. So, if you look at it holistically, it's like, well, at least we know that they're nervous about us, right? and that the brand of Pinnacle was I think extremely intimidating to the opening of the US market. Many people did many things in the 11th hour throwing in. And if you operated offshore, you can't have a license

ever. And it's like, you know what? You got what you wanted. You had a substandard product for the beginning of this. Now you've allowed the monopoly because of the substandard product. And the US market really, I think it could be so much more. I mean, they're they're thriving. Give them that. But it's just a bit shameful that the way to get ahead is to push somebody down. Absolutely agree. So, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about how it affected you personally, Paris, if you if you're happy to talk about it because that like you're not a robot, right? That's going to that's

going to really affect you, how you feel, how you deal with it, how you push through it. Perhaps you drown it out completely, but I'd love to hear how you how you dealt with that level of pressure and, you know, noise and and all of that happening at the same time. When I left WWTS and came to Pinnacle, I knew that to me it was a powerhouse and I'd hoped that I could make it a bigger powerhouse. So, that level of scrutiny, that's fine. I know I'm in gaming, right? But I think the biggest challenge is the evolution of the industry. how from the beginning

if everybody thought from day one if I do this I could get some situation from the US government they wouldn't have done it because at that moment there were a million loopholes as is today sweep stakes is thriving I love that for them but it's there's there were so many loopholes the big stick was you cannot take a bet in the US that was a standard everybody knew it All the legal opinions stated that. So what do you do? You come offshore. You get a license, right? Antigga at that time where I was at said you can be here and operate anywhere you want, but

you can't take bets from Antigga. So we did that and then all of a sudden somebody's like, wait, you know, and then it got too big. People were doing TV interviews and then the US government thought, hm, let's try to put a hammer on this. Let's try to slow it down instead of regulate it. And then it shifted away to now companies become public. And they had no clue what was happening offshore. They not a clue. And the only way they the only clue they had was looking at a at an annual report for a publicly listed company. And 90% of the indictments are 80% cut

and paste from the annual report. Okay. You guys are fantastic detectives anyway. But so as something as a hammer flies down then you know okay now the the the goalpost has changed. But I think sometimes today people are so delusional to think that we knew from day one that what we did was going to get the consequences that came from the changing of the goalpost. And that's where the resilience I'm I'm extremely resilient. I also have a lot of phenomenal support from my family and my friends. So no matter what the situation was, you know, people would they knew me. They knew I didn't launder

$700 million worth of money was the handle of the company. Like you know, some of the things were were completely ridiculous. So just having that support throughout the years, that's what's made me most resilient. But in itself, the industry is extremely resilient. And people talk about the passion that people have in this industry. You know, when people are like, "Oh, I've only been, you know, I've been in for 2 years." I'm like, "You're not going anywhere." You know, I've had beautiful job offers outside of it. I can't. I love the people. I love the challenges. You know, I love challenges. I love anything that's complicated. I

want to fix it. So yeah, I definitely found my home in the aiming space and the pace as well, right? I think that's something that's really around you too. What what you were saying with like a few minutes on the clock, you know, that that idea of pace and short deadlines so typical and the change of pace for regulations and and even just the business within itself, right? because we've had payment catastrophes. We've had telecommunication technology catastrophes, DOS attack catastrophes. It's such a dynamic industry. It's not some companies now. Yeah, they're technology companies, but you still have to have your marketing, you have to have

your legal, your compliance, your trading, your risk management, your fraud detection. Like, it's it's such a dynamic, exciting industry. Yeah, love it. Hey, Paris, one of one of the things that you just said was around how you've got really strong resilience and a big part of that is family and friends, right? And I think that's so true for most people that have great resilience is because they have a group to lean on and to offload and to, you know, to just put things in perspective. And so, how have you dealt with that? because I think that's one of, you know, for experts especially, what I

see a lot is that they lose that network and then they perhaps only find a network that's just inside of their own company. What are some of the things that you've done to to help with that, if anything? Well, first of all, I've not moved around a lot. I have had two jobs. The first one was 11 years in Antigga and the second one is was 17 years in Kurissau. And the interesting thing about, you know, I I never had the European expat. I've always been the Caribbean expat. And there's something extremely special about Antigga and Kurissau where the expat community, they aren't friends, they're

family. And it's really beautiful. Like I've known people literally for 30 years that have even some of them are out of the industry. A lot of them are in the industry. We're all kids going partying, hanging out on from 12:30 at night when we finish work till, you know, 5:00 in the morning. You got to go back to work at 9:00. We had that cycle. And then we all had got married. We had kids. And then the big parties are the kids birthday parties where now we've included alcohol for a 2-year-old birthday party for all of our friends to enjoy. So the people that I've

met throughout I mean I've had I have an amazing base from my childhood and my college years but then like my family base in Antigga is amazing. I have friends that I absolutely love and adore and they're my closest friends. And then my Kurissau community, you know, sometimes when my friends do come visit from the states, they're like, "Oh my god, how do you find these people?" And it's just like that energy both Antigga and Kurissau, but most recently in Kurissau. So it's I just somehow find the most phenomenal people. So important to find, right? Um I'd love to talk a little bit about what

you do today and especially the changes from fast growth big organization to now smaller advisory you must see so many different environments nowadays must be quite exciting but what are some of the things that you're noticing from that from those different environments from the kind of startup scene helping out yeah what are some of the trends that you're noticing in I gaming some of the trends are leadership challenges that's something that is becoming very clear like you'd mentioned earlier Sometimes the strongest developer, you know, it's like, God, he's amazing. He gets everything out on time. Let's put him in charge. He doesn't want to be

in charge. He wants to code. But we give it them, you know, in defense of them. They're being offered more money. There's less coding time, more people time. It sounds good. And then when the reality starts setting in, it's more challenging. Another change that's very evident after co everything was about people. I mean the travel costs were phenomenal for everybody. Everybody needs to go and give a hug to the person they have never met before and they hadn't met him for 15 years before. So that was interesting. But everybody has to see each other, touch each other, make sure they're okay. And then the cost

soared and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, so the the business bounced back, but we're not making as much money because the costs are so high. And it happened in every industry across every area, not just gaming. And then you see the, you know, the fight for how do we maximize um profitability? And many many times the idea or the the the solution is to cut people. And that's a a great business decision. Profitability is king. You're you're not here to make friends. You're here to make money. It's one of my little mantras when I was being a bit of a jerk, but

it's a fact. But there is a way, right? And there is transitioning times. There was a company in Canada that made a massive shift and they realized that what they were doing just was not going to work anymore. And instead of just laying people off, they actually had a meeting, explain to everybody, this is where we were. This is why it's not working and this is what we need to do. These are the teams that are going to be impacted. it has nothing to do with your quality of the service that you've provided to us and we're going to try to help you find a

job. To me, that was the most professional, mature, inspirational move that I had ever seen. And I believe that they placed the majority of their people and and the the way in which it was done. Other people get an email. Some people, you know, it's like, hey, you know, how are you doing today? Yeah, I know. Well, we're going to close this in a couple days here or so. Yeah, but thanks. You did great. It's traumatic. So, there has to be a shift at some point. And I do believe that it goes to leaders have many skills, many qualities. Sometimes the tough stuff, if you

will, or maybe the nonprofitability type things aren't in their wheelhouse. and rather than just trying to drop a hammer like maybe get more strategic I think could could benefit a lot of companies in that regard. One of the things that you're saying there which is so crucial is just that personability and authenticity realizing that you're deal dealing with people and yes of course we're optimizing for profit because without profit the business is just not there but that doesn't mean that you've got to be a robot about how you go about business right and I think that's one of the big things that often larger organizations

struggle with where you know there's an email that goes out goes into spam and somebody turns up and the role is no longer there you know like Yeah. But then the other thing is where you have those different management tiers that aren't equipped. So, you know, they're not coaching it in a way that would make somebody understand and and instead of trying to help somebody understand why things are happening, it's easier for them. And it's kind of the default where you diminish that person. So, they're like, "Oh my god, that, you know, they're not happy with me. I'm not doing a good job because they

don't know how to say we don't know how to how to utilize you. But instead of saying that, it's like, well, you know, you're just not up for it. Well, yeah. Well, we've had a lot of complaints about you. All these, you know, ambiguous comments that really diminish somebody's character. And I feel like, you know, when I consult a lot of people, I'm a mentor to a lot of people. And I'm always like, if you've been there for 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, what you did has value, do not let anybody diminish that. You showed up. You did your best. You took training. You

grew. When things were bad, you were there to help support. You need to take that to your next role and not allow anybody to pull you down from what you deserve. And many times people get a job where they're much happier anyway. In the moment it's horrible, but usually it ends up to be a blessing, right? Hey, if you're a VP, a director, founder or executive in I gaming and you want to achieve sustainable high performance with without sacrificing your personal life or your well-being, then the I gaming leader mastermind might be your kind of thing. It is a highly vetted community in which we

work together with other I gaming leaders in the industry to achieve that sustainable high performance because leadership in I gaming can be really lonely and isolating when you've got the right people around you it can make such a difference to your performance your productivity and your personal life. So, if that's something you want to know a little bit more about, head over to i gamingleer.com and apply to join. So, you've been in the industry for 30 years. Think about three types of people. The people that don't last or burn out or just don't make it, the people that stagnate, and the people that really thrive. If

you think about those three groups, what do you think underpins like some of the behaviors or habits or skills or mindsets that each of those three people has? It's a lot of the personality, right? So, I feel like the people that have to get out and they don't survive, they don't listen because you always have a team unless you're the one man band. And and I find even when I've had moments where I was going downhill a bit, I I wasn't listening. Right? You're paying people, they care, listen to what they have to say. Those people that fail aren't listening and they think they're always

right. So that's that category. And then the ones that are stagnant, they're so busy sitting in the success of the moment and they're comfortable in that. They're not looking, you know, like I always felt like I had a duty to my shareholders and a duty to the team to grow. So people that are like, you know what, we're good where we are, you know, why do more? Why? They're just never they they can't succeed. And the reality is now with that evolution of our industry that stagnancy just drops down. It's not like you can ride the wave. You know, the calm waters don't exist. So

either you get with it or you probably need to get out. That's where you see a lot of acquisitions as well, right? And then the the ones that thrive, they're the ones I feel like they're thought leaders. They listen to what what's what's out there. They're aware of everything. they can admit when they're wrong. That's a huge to me. That's like the the accountability that is such a basic fundamental that is so non-existent. It's never anybody's fault. You know, the fingerpointing game. And I feel like those leaders that will take that accountability and pivot and shift whenever they have to to continue to thrive, that's

the golden ticket right there. Own accountability as well because I remember it in the good old poker days. you know, anything you touch would just turn into gold, right? Because it was so easy. Everything was so easy and the market was growing so quickly. And that's of course no longer the case for most businesses, I suppose, today. And it kind of goes back to the start of our conversation, right? Where okay, put the challenges in front of you and push through those challenges. And that is what makes makes most people thrive and and that's how you get away from being stagnant. Well, when you were

asking the question, I thought you were going to ask like what are the categories of people that become successful and I would say back in the day luck like oh my goodness, you know, I look at the the kind of retrospective of the people that started that were hugely successful. You know, you basically showed up for work and turned on your computers and you're going to make money. you know that's as it was almost that good to now with these startups like the guys that were back then they wouldn't have been able to survive in this startup world this is intense this is a lot

and these are really bright people and right now when I see a lot as you'd mentioned and sometimes I see people that have beautiful ideas that could be product but not a company and I'm really trying to help people understand where they fit with that or how do you create more than what your original idea is to to have that business if you will. There's so much out there. You know, there's probably a lot of room and opportunity for collaboration throughout this and that ecosystem of startups that's starting to come on strong will allow for those conversations and ideas to start permeating. Love it. Um

Jordan who Jordan Arasmus who's in our last mind he he had a question for you as well. He said with your fast experience in I gaming what do you see as the biggest untapped opportunities for operators today? I think that there is something out there in a way of a user experience. I mean right now the focus for user experience products has been the highest margin product for a sport book. Yep. Right. What if there's a product that is actually helping people? They help make a better choice by using data. But, you know, like there's just got to be something out there that makes it

a better user experience that doesn't try to bleed bleed them and it's like buying a lottery ticket, not placing a bet. There needs to be something like that at some stage and that's an untapped area. I think the same game parlays that's such an excitement for everybody. But I mean it only went bad I think one month because all the favorites won. But beyond that it's such a money grab. It's almost embarrassing. You know back in the 30 years ago no sports book would feel good about that. They would feel like they're robbing the player. So now you talk about the evolution of the industry. Um, but

again, there's nothing wrong with having that transition because that's the response to the expenses in getting into regulated markets. You have to make more money. But don't you think also that a lot of that is because of the short-term vision that most businesses have in gaming, right? As a result of everchanging regulation. So, you never know how long you're going to be able to do the same thing for a prolonged amount of time. There's always short-term revenue goals that need to be that need to be met. and a high focus on acquisition. So, as a result of that, things are rarely really optimized for lifetime

value, but more for instant value, right? So, it's more high margin products rather than actual player experience. I think that's one of the key issues that um that most most operators probably struggle with. How do you see that, Paris? This kind of off the cuff as well. It's just kind of what I'm thinking as you're talking about. I love that. I actually had a huge discussion yesterday about responsible gaming and even within WWTS and within Pinnacle, we never were like, let's get everything we can when we can. That's not the point. The first problem is what is the definition for addictive gambling, right? So, if

I'm worth hundreds of millions of dollars and I want to bet 20 million a year in betting, do I have a problem? Probably not. So sometimes people think big bets, large bets, that's a problem gambler. First of all, the definition has to be more clear. The second problem is exactly what you were saying, how acquisition is important. People have to hit market numbers if you're publicly listed, which is usually the case in the US market. So they have to keep their share price up and make money and get those high holds in order to pay those high expensive for the regulatory fees that they have

to pay and all the other data rate fees etc. And in the meantime everybody's like well they're encouraging people to spend more. Of course they are. And the reality is this has been the landbased situation forever. I know the the big debate is, well, it's online, it's on your phone. It's the same thing. You walk into the casino, your VIP host is chasing you around trying to make sure that you're going to lose the maximum money you can lose. So, the one question I have that I think would be super interesting is if the regulators truly wanted the responsible gaming and wanted to look out

the players, they could reward those organizations that are not doing the hey, you know, Johnny, it looks like you like you've got uh $200 for the weekend. You know, if you send a,000, we'll give you a,000 whatever. I don't even know what Pinnacle never did bonus. I'm not a fan of bonuses anyway. But um you know and trying to feed that behavior which creates gambling and that is what the marketing and VIP role is. So if you get a better balance and you it would just take tons of data and nobody wants to provide data for this which is the conversation was but if a

company DraftKings MGM FanDuel were rewarded for creating true authentic responsible gaming mechanics within their organizations. I really think that now you don't have the conflict of interest because it's it's so conflicting and then all the onus of all the costs for the responsible gaming. Okay, so you have to get numbers for the street and you have to do all these different things and try to be a profitable company and then you have to add another 40, 50, 100 people for responsible gaming because the regulators are, you know, focusing on that, not understanding it, not even understanding the definition. So it's all very disjointed and I

just feel like at some point in time all the lobbyists that have their interests of their individual companies the information that's being provided to the regulators is so agenda driven. So they're not even able to make the right decisions and it's just how it works apparently. So, you know, it's going to be what it is, but at some stage, it would be really interesting if there was an authentic approach that actually encouraged and had a financial impact positively for those organizations that have spent millions of dollars trying to play the cat and mouse game. Carrots, not stick. I like it. Um, Paris, I' I'd love

to hear a little bit more about people that inspired you the most in your journey. You are there so many people that really look up to you, rightfully so. I'd love to hear it from the other way around. Like, what are some of the people that have inspired you the most and what have they done to inspire you? Yeah, there's just so many, you know, um, from a resilience perspective, Billy Walters, I've actually, he was the first person I took a phone call from when I was a clerk 30 years ago. And just the way like the way in which he moved, he always had

his beards and, you know, they never knew each other. He just had such a system that was phenomenal. I love that. And then what he's gone through, our stories are very similar. You get too powerful, you get too successful, and everybody wants to rip you down. And you know, the government's chasing you down. There was never anything against being a better, but they kept going after him. So, in the end, when they found a little opportunity, they just pounced on it. And it was I I believe, of course, I'm a super fan, so I believe it was really fair. But the his resilience and how

he takes every opportunity you know when he went to um he had to serve time and he started a jail reform project like this guy is beyond a phenomenal person right he's just a beautiful person so he inspires me a lot and then um like I said there's a lot you know Sue Schneider's always inspired me she started the whole conference so people could talk each other and started the community of gaming you know of everybody knowing each other and she's also a huge advocate for policies and regulation and we're sometimes on the opposite end of the spectrum but still a very large compliment. So

to be able to have my next chapter being a co-founder with her and Kelly Keane is such a luxury. I absolutely love it. She's such a selfless person. And then talking with Sue the other day and she was talking about a mutual friend Ruth Parasol. One of the biggest deals that could have should have happened was WWTS. It was uh English Harbor Casino and Party Gaming. And I'm going so far in the early 2000s. And it's when WWTS was acquired by an Australian group. The valuations were I don't remember the numbers, but the the top dog was WWTS and then it was English Harbor and

then Party Gaming. And that in the midst of all this negotiation, Party Gaming did a uh the the big million-doll boat cruise. From that moment, they just skyrocketed and they came back and let's just say if the number was 11 million, 15 million that they were going to sell for, they wanted like 7 or 9 million more and the Australian group refused it. And you know, it's at that time in gaming where that was a good number. But what I respect so much about Ruth Parasol, she's like, "I'm not doing it. We're not doing it." And they just walked away, you know? So, I have

so much respect. And then guess who's the billionaire, right? And it's it's so interesting because I've never felt like I can't believe she did that. I've always felt like good for her. What a smart business woman. Yeah. So I've always admired her and you know she's inspired me for that and she just she grew that and she grew it in a way that she knew where her strength was so she knew where she had to add. So I admire her a lot for that and she's so inspirational. Love it. Love it. Thank you very much Paris. Uh very last question to you. when you think

about kind of the people that you work with and you advise now what is what is maybe the the biggest thing that they are missing the blind spot that they have the thing that they don't see that if they would you know just do more of that they would be so much more successful that's a great question there's a couple things one is believing in themselves the second thing is understanding where they fit in the ecosystem of the of the industry. A lot of people are like, "Oh, this is nobody else has this. This is brand new." And I'm like, "Okay, I'm not going to

run around and do your competitive analysis, but you need to because it's there." Right? So I think you know not being stuck in their idea of what they want to do and really look at what is required needed and solving a problem in the industry. You know if people did more of that they would start elevating. And to be honest with you I do have quite a few groups that are that way. I always look for hungry humble smart and passionate and that humble listening and being able to pivot. And then sometimes when I'm speaking with them, they're like, I know I'm pivoting again. I'm

like, that's not bad because you've got new data. You've got new information and things have shifted. So, you need to pivot or you're going to be that stagnant operator that we were talking about earlier and never get anywhere. Yeah. Most people I speak to today always talk about that curiosity is probably one of the most underrated, you know, identity pieces that people lack or have and super important just to just to understand that. Thank you very much, Paris. It's been amazing talking to you. Uh, thanks for coming on the podcast. I've loved it. I'm really grateful for being here. Thanks so much. Thank you for

joining me on the i Gaming Leader podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iamingleer.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and I hope to see you next week.

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