Frank op de Woerd: The Real Cost of Always Saying Yes with Frank Op de Woerd

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They said, "We need a guy who can present, who can blog, who can edit, who can also write front page articles." And I said, "Yeah, sure. I'm the I'm your guy." I had no experience in blogging or editing or presenting, but I bluffed myself in. I felt I was well equipped for that job. At one point, I was kind of like the face of Dutch poker, at least at at the time. So, I felt very comfortable. I was kind of proud of of what I reached without like a journalistic background or anything. And then I was inducted in the Poker Hall of Fame. So on

top of it being an honor to be inducted. It was very emotional at the time. There's some photos where, you know, I'm I'm crying a little bit because it's it was a beautiful moment. Welcome to the I Gaming Leader podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins. And as an exi gaming director turned performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Intane, 365, Flutter, and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to

achieve the same. So, with that being said, let's dive in. Hey guys, welcome to the i Gaming Leader podcast. I am here today with somebody that I have been following for a very, very long time. So, super excited to to speak to you. Frank Opdevwood. I don't know how to pronounce it in English, but so we'll just do it in Dutch. Frank Opiv, really excited to have you here. Founder of Casino News, co-founder of Casinone News.nel, of course, massive in Holland. And yeah, I've I've been following you for a long time when you were still with Poker News for a very long time. So, welcome

welcome to the podcast, man. Thanks for having me. Very excited to be here. Excited to talk to you. Yeah, great great to have you. Hey, Frank. I wanted to start off with kind of the mid 2000s. We were talking about it before kind of that that poker boom and how everything was so different back then, right? Poker was on TV at midnight. We were all playing the Americans, you know, waking up to collect some money. But I'd like you to go a little bit back before that. How did you actually get into the into the industry before you even joined Poker News? No, it was

from moment one it was true poker news to be honest. Like like you I got excited about poker. I was seeing it on TV. I was playing I think it was at first on Poker Stars and Everest Poker. You know they had these one or five cents rollas and whatnot. But at one point obviously, you know, I went looking for some strategy. I went to poker news and they had a big forum. So I got involved there. Obviously looking back at it, I I asked a lot of stupid questions. I was total beginner, total newbie, but I was hooked from moment one really. I I've

been always enjoying playing games. Never like a huge gamer, but like games within the family, card games. I was always interested in that. And you know, from from from one thing led to the other. I I got more involved. I got a th00and post. I got a 2,000 post at that forum. I became a moderator. That was, you know, it it was an honor to be one of the moderators there. And then I became head moderator. And then at one point they I started working for a company which was called Pokerless, Poker Lessons, you know, drunk people explaining them the rules of poker in like

20 minutes and then playing a little game. That company was kind of merging or collaborating with poker news. So they needed a guy who would write these silly 500word articles on RX Adventures. So that was my first writing gig for Poker News. So at one point they they they started a magazine and like a physical magazine. So we had a physical magazine where I started working on that. I interviewed people and then at one point they said they would always go to the WSP in in Vegas for seven weeks straight every year. They said, "We need a guy or a girl obviously who can present, who

can blog, who can edit, and who can also write front page articles." And I said, "Yeah, sure. I'm the I'm your guy." I had no no experience in blogging or or really editing or presenting, but you know, I bluff myself in. So, I went to Vegas for seven weeks straight. But, you know, that those seven weeks in Vegas, they flew by. I was extremely excited to stay in poker. And he said, "You want to stay working with us? I can offer you." I think it was €2,000 a month, something like that. Which, and I said, "Yeah, let's do it." You know, I want to stay

in poker. I want to be that poker reporter. I want to go everywhere. At the time, they still had the European poker tour. They had I think they had 13 stops in a year at the time. And we had the Unibet opens. We had WSB. So, it was crazy. and I loved it. So I started working with them and that's really how I got in in involved in in gambling. I started going to the World Series poker 2008 and then from that moment on I for 13 years straight I went to the World Series of Poker every year and I've greatly enjoyed it. It was

the time of my life. So cool. We were talking about this before. We kind of had the same start, right? I did the same thing, quit my job, was kind of living at home, you know, and also quickly realized that um I was also on this point where where you were, I think, where I realized, okay, yeah, I'm pretty okay with playing poker, but I'm not going to make it in the poker world, right? And there's this quote that you've you've you had, you know, my losing sessions hurt way more than the enjoyment of the winning sessions, right? And I think like that level of

self-awareness I thought when I read that from you I thought that was so cool. So is that like how was that for you Frank? Because that like kind of that realization if you're so passionate about that you know that area that poker in itself that must have been very difficult. I reached a level where you know these guys are really good and at the time you had poker office which was you know the the stats tracking. It wasn't really my thing. Yeah, I was I was interested in it, but I couldn't really grab it. And then I was reading our forums and I could I

could understand everything that they're explaining, but I couldn't really do it myself. But yeah, I was hooked by poker in itself. So when I got the opportunity to go to Vegas for several weeks, I jumped at it and I had no no issue with not playing myself. you know, I would play the daily teach every now and then or some small cash game, but it wasn't like I felt like I'm majorly missing out because I saw that people would lose their buyins as well and people could get down on their their lock. Uh, you know, it's so I very much enjoyed having the perks of

being in that atmosphere, being in Vegas, being in Monaco, Barcelona, Melbourne and everything, hanging out with these ballers. I I got invited a lot to a lot of parties. So, you know, I had my fair share of of fun at the time, but it didn't cost me an arm and a leg basically. So, no, I was very happy with how that all turned out. And I was I I feel that. So, so we did interviews, but we also made daily videos and whatnot. And I could talk on a certain level with these high roller, high level, high stakes players. I could ask the right questions. people

looking at our videos, watching our videos would understand that I wasn't like some total idiot. So, I was believable. I felt I was well equipped for that job. And yeah, I was striving, you know, at one point I was kind of like the face of Dutch poker, at least at the at the time. So, yeah, I felt very comfortable. I was kind of proud of of what I reached without like a journalistic background or anything. I was, you know, presenting. I was my my mother heard me at well it was always 1:00 a.m. when they showed these poker shows in the Netherlands, but still it

was my voice sheard. So, she kind of got around to it and I'm I'm not sure if she was proud, but at least it was more than just some anonymous website for her. Man, you know what? I just for the listeners here, so I was in the poker industry at the same time in Holland as well in Dutch and you were a superstar, man. You were like everybody was following you and so thank you for everything you've done in the industry because you were on TV all the time. Pogo was on the TV all the time. Your face was everywhere. Your news was everywhere. How

was that lifestyle for you? All of that traveling that must have I mean that's a very demanding lifestyle. Traveling a lot, reporting a lot on TV late nights. Like how was that? How how did you feel about that? Must have been very exciting but must have had a very demanding side as well. I was away from home for weeks out of the year and I would eat very unhealthy. I remember in in Vegas it was at the Rio at the time you had All American Bar and Grill. I would eat there six six nights out of seven. I was very unhealthy. I was I was

growing and obviously I was enjoying myself. I went I I partied a lot. I was invited to a lot of parties and late nights. I was always trying to go from one stop straight to the other instead of flying back home for two days. I would, you know, I I would ask for the best hotels or at least the best breakfast for example. So I, you know, you know, stuff like that. It was just exciting. And I had my friends at home, but I was still living at home. So, I didn't have like a house that I needed to take care of, or I didn't

have a girlfriend or a wife like I have now, and I have a a son right now. None of that. It was just a different time. It was it was just very excited exciting to to be part of. And yeah, like I said, at least, you know, for the poker fans or you know, it had I had some recognition as well. So, yeah, I felt proud. some of my friends from back home. They would follow me around. I was big on Twitter at the time, which I don't use it anymore, but you know, that was the the medium of of interest for poker world. I

had a lot of followers. People were following them. We It was It was a It was a good time. Just to kind of underline what you've done for the industry, I think in 2015, you co-founded the Dutch Poker Hall of Fame, right? And then in 2019, you were the first media member to, you know, to get awarded by your peers and be recognized. Such an honor. How like that? I thought that was super cool. How did you like how how was that moment for you? How did that feel? Yeah, getting in inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame was a bit of a weird one

because I started the Poker Hall of Fame because you know you have the International Poker Hall of Fame. And I would every year I would nom nominate Marcel Lusk and Noah Booker to of the great poker players and they would never get in because you know it's mostly Americans and whatnot. So I figured you know we need to have our own Dutch poker hall of fame and I started it. I worked with Holland Casino here in the Netherlands to give it some weights and we had a proper ceremony and we had a website and whatnot and but my first rule was I cannot get in

because it you know it's kind of weird if it's my poker hall of fame that I would get in myself and we have the public voting but we also have the sitting members they decides who gets in not me and so I I set it up properly so I couldn't get into any any issues there but in 2019 They decided that I needed to be in there. Anyway, it was a a really a surprise to me when I got in and I was very honored, very and I was very emotional at the time as well. I had just gotten married. I had just had my

son and I was without a job. So that was and I had obviously at the time by by then I had my own house and whatnot. So I had responsibilities and all of a sudden I had no job for the first time in my life basically of course. And so I was and my wife was fired as well a couple months before and then I was inducted in the Poker Hall of Fame. So on top of it being an honor, you know, to be inducted, it was some sort of validation as well. It was that's why I was very emotional at the time. There's some

photos where, you know, I'm I'm crying a little bit because it's it was it was a beautiful moment and I was very happy about it and obviously yeah, like I said, honored and then but I figured, you know, I can always go back to poker reporting, right? I know everyone in the poker world. I know how to write, I can present, I'll be fine, right? I was very honored to get inducted, but at the same time, I, you know, a poker hall of fame to me, it should be about the poker players first. But you know, some people were very important for the game of

poker in the popularity of the game of poker in the Netherlands as well, but weren't per se poker players. So I was one of them. So maybe I should be in that hall of fame as well. It's kind of like a semantic discussion, right? What should be a poker hall of fame? What should be the the basketball hall of fame? I don't know. People have different thoughts, but there were more people that were important for the popularity of the game, not per se, the best players or anything. So, it wasn't that I was a oneoff, but yeah, I was the first media member and I'm

still very honored that I'm in there and I still have it listed. I think on my LinkedIn, for example, it's just it's one of these things, right, when you look back at it. I was the head of content for Poker News, which I felt very proud of. I member of the poker hall of fame, which I'm proud of, and now I'm a founder of of a of a website that's doing well, and I'm also proud of that. Yes. And rightly so. Then COVID happened, right? So, you've got all these things happening at the same time. You're a new dad, which for anybody that isn't a

parent yet means that you're losing a lot of sleep. So, you're already not, you know, you're not at your best. It's difficult. You know, the first few years with a with a kid, you just, you had your own home, right? You've got your first mortgage. You your wife loses your job. Then COVID hits. So, that would have that would have knocked somebody out that would have been less resilient than you. How how did you manage through that time? through my poker career like poker reporting it wasn't making you rich but there was always some money in there right I had experience so I felt it

was always in the back of my mind it was a backup plan basically whatever happens I can always go back to poker reporting earn a couple hundred a day and you know make make living and see some cool places but co happened and all of a sudden that backup plan was gone you know there was there were no tournaments I was scheduled for a poker tournament in Paris and that got cancelled I got just got back from Punto Deles in Uruguay. That was the last big tournament that happened that year and all of a sudden I had a a real problem. I had some money

saved up. I could easily get by for 6 months, but after 6 months, you know, it was tricky. Some people contacted me and they had well plans. They talked about the Dutch online gambling market opening up in the but it was still more than a year out at the time. And they said, you know, we're going to invest a year of our time and then when the market opens, we're going to reap the rewards. And I said, yeah, you know, it all sounds great, but I don't have that year. I can't go by a year without earning any income. I I simply have to pay

my mortgage and my son's diapers and whatnot. So, yeah, I I I told these very friendly people, you know, that that's a no-go for me. But then things changed, fortunately, because someone contacted me. I'd never heard of. And he said, "My name is John Lam Mole. You've never heard of me, but I know you because I've been following poker. I play poker a little bit and I want to start a gambling affiliate website." And my first reply was, "I have no interest in gambling. I I only enjoy poker because it's a skill game." And and I but yeah, you know, you can only be so

brass for so long because, you know, like I said, I needed some money as well. So I said, "But we can always have a conversation, but I I wanted to make sure that one night I was talking to was not shady. That was like a proper person, someone honest, not in it for quick bucks or anything." And he said, "You and I have a mutual friend, Arm Mayor. Contact him and ask him about me and I'm sure it'll make you feel more comfortable." So I ranged Armine and I said like, "Who's Yand Mo?" I said, "Yeah, he's a poker place, but he's also a very

serious affiliate in the Netherlands, and he's a straight shooter. He's an honest guy, you know, a hard worker. He's he's done it himself. He's not some Yeah, like there's a lot of shady characters in the industry in gambling, but in affiliation for sure as well." So, COVID hit really hit. So, there was a lockdown at the time, but I said, "I'll come to Berikam and we can meet." And on a Saturday morning, I drove here and we had a meeting and it just clicked right away. I felt a yeah, I felt a Canadian like and I've told him this myself as well. Obviously, I had

limited options. I needed something, but I said if we're doing this, I need a salary. Even if we're investing for a year or building the website for a year without even going live at first and then being live with no banners, no affiliates, no links, no no nothing, I still need a salary. And he said, "Okay." Okay. And I said, "My rule number two is if we're doing reporting, we're doing proper reporting. We're doing real news. We're not just writing what others are writing or, you know, quick bits." Obviously, you didn't have chat GPT at the time, but you could, you know, scan an article

and have like a, you know, 400page version of it yourself within like half an hour. I said like, "No, okay, if we're doing it, we're doing proper reporting. We're doing we're sharing our sources and whatnot." and he said, "Yeah, that sounds like our my ID as well." And I think, yeah, I think I was here in March 2020, something like that, and April 14th we started. So, yeah, it was it was good. So, cool, Frank. One of the one of the things that I wanted to ask you about there is I also remember the transition from poker to sports betting and casino and I was

in the same mindset as you, right? you go ah but this skill game and now I'm going to go into this area that you know like many people that have no experience with with the gambling industry is a bit of a I don't know it's just tarnished right where you feel that it's full of people that are super addicted and there's businesses that just help people get addicted that's kind of the outside view when you're not when you're not inside of it for many people and then obviously over the years you know as you start you see that that's actually very different um but how

was How was that for you? I know that you were saying you needed a job, but that must have been a difficult decision as well, right? Like that mindset shift from from from poker to to gaming. So, sports betting has always been a bit of an outlier for me because I knew professional sports betting players as well. So, I knew there was skill involved there, but yeah, like typical gambling. That was always something that I didn't really felt the connection with. Obviously, everyone's gambled. But, you know, you had poker stars back in the day that was just poker, but you also had party poker with

the blackjack logo on the top left corner. So, I didn't feel comfortable with that at the time. But because of poker in the Netherlands, I'd always been interested in the legislation in the Netherlands and it was it was illegal, but it wasn't illegal because like you said, you know, it was on TV. I didn't feel like I was doing something illegal. Like so many things in Holland, you know, [ __ ] everything. basically that's what what we build our country on but yeah no so I didn't feel but I knew there was legislation in the works so I always kept tabs on on what's going

on there so I was well aware that we were in the process of regulation legislation writing new legislation so I was interested in that part of it because it was also relevant for poker because if if if the legislation opens up you know we have proper poker online poker I hoped that we would get proper live poker as outside of Holland Casino. That never happened. But so I was I was tapped into that and that made it the transition maybe a little bit easier because at first I was building the website, writing articles mostly on the legislation part because I felt it very hard to

find proper information on what's going on, what's what's the current state, when are we when is the legislation happening. you had gaming in Holland that had a newsletter once a week that gave us an update. But I I wanted more and I was looking into stuff that was shared from our government, from the regulator. So that eased me into it and and and more and more I appreciated that, you know, gambling has been going on for 60,000 years. I had gambled in my life. I've been in casinos. I wasn't addicted. So yeah, know it. I eased into it basically. And when I fully immer myself

into gambling, I look back at it, it's like, wow, poker's just so tiny. It's just a fraction of of everything. How could I be so been so invested in poker and not see the potential of these other games? and live casino was, you know, so yeah, I felt like, wow, I I've been in this industry for so long, but I'd never seen the full scope of what is gambling and and and poker tiny bit of it. Obviously, poker was bigger back in the days. You had more online poker rooms and whatnot. Everyone starting their own online poker room. He had big networks with different skins, but

still, you know, poker has always been I I I think for the majority of the of the the online poker is an acquisition tool to get people into the environment of gambling instead of being the end destination. So yeah, I eased into it. I was very interested in the regulation part of it. And I still don't gamble myself and I will still warn a lot of people, but I don't see the harm in it anymore as big as I used to be. No, exactly. Makes a lot of sense. And I think that's that's true for everybody in the in Well, not for everybody, but that's

true for people as they move into it and they start seeing that actually it's a tiny fraction and uh yeah, as long as we're responsible, right, it's it's all good. Um, one of the things I wanted to So, when you launched Casino News, Frank, like 2020, right? I like one of the things that you were doing is you had this kind of ramp up period where you were just grinding out like you were writing and writing and and creating the websites, right? Like that level of intensity. I think you were you've edited like a thousand articles or something or oversaw like a thousand articles before

even, you know, before the whole thing even even went out. like that level of dedication and work ethic is just something else and I kind of see that coming back with you. I see that in like how you were going about poker tours and travel and you know have you always been like that? Have you always had that kind of work ethic in you? Yeah, for sure. But I mean it's it's and I'm I feel very flattered that you're putting it like that, but and I don't want to put out too many cliches here, but I never saw it as as, you know, working, grinding, or

whatever. I thoroughly enjoyed everything that I was doing when I was doing poker. I didn't look at my watch like, "Oh my god, is it 3:00 a.m. yet? Because I want to go home." No, I was excited. Who's going to win this tournament? What hands are they playing? This is crazy. I wanted to share it with the world. I was ran back to my computer because I was excited to share what I had seen and and at the same it's kind of similar for when we started building cazino news. You know, I felt like wow, this is interest must be interesting and we saw our

numbers grow. You know, the visitors obviously we had no there was no monetization yet, but you could see that it was that we were building something and that people were interested in it. you had some other websites that were in that same space already, but I felt they didn't do what we were doing and people were interested in it. And I, you know, at the one of the biggest validations that I had was because Jan, my my my my partner in casino news, he was active back in the day already when it was a gray area. So the regulator who affiliation was always in in

this little gray area where they were very wary of the regulator and and the ministry you know they wanted to stay away from those as far as possible but we were like a legit affiliate obviously we weren't doing affiliation yet but we were gearing up for it but so we had all of a sudden access to the regulator and I did an interview request for the chairman of the of the regulator reg unheard of at the time that like a a commercial website or at least, you know, an affiliation website would have an interview with the regulator, but they agreed and that was, you know, just

crazy to me that we got that access. We I asked Holland Casino, it was during co I need photos of for my blackjack session. Can I make photos in Holland Casino of every blackjack combination? And they said, yeah, that's okay. will give you three full days, two dealers, and you can make photos of anything you want. And we got €100,000 in in chips to play with. Obviously to to make photos of not to we couldn't keep them, but like that that that layout of shape, but that level of of of of access was crazy and unheard of. And I hadn't anticipated that either, but you

know, to to the bold the bold or the brave, you know, I just tried and they agreed. So we had those photos. I did the interview with the regulator and you know all of a sudden we had like a real proper website with real visitors that would return every day and obviously we weren't making any money yet but we saw the potential so we started hiring people as well and we took it very very serious but one of the the the funny things is actually so we had regulation it started on October 1st 2021 and apps, but they only announced the license holders 2 days

or a day before and ICE was going on or IGB in Amsterdam was going on. So I was in in Amsterdam staying in a hotel. I got up very early in the morning. No, I stayed up all night to to see who the the licences would be and I published a simple article, just a news article. I think it was 500 words. These are the license holders. These are the the people that got their license from the count spell out in fact that we built our website on that simple article because that one became the number one when you search for legal online casino in

the Netherlands at one point because we as the first one had the 10 names of the license holders. The we we built this whole website with all this information section about online casino and whatnot. this simple news article that really got us thousands and thousands of visitors because everyone was looking, you know, I want to gamble online legally now. I've heard that this is possible in the Netherlands. Where do I need to go? And we had the answer. So, yeah, it was an amazing time as well. And we got lucky a couple times, but it was also hard work, of course, but it didn't feel

like hard work or anything. And it still still doesn't. I still enjoy it. Yeah. a man it's it's I don't know like it sounds like for you there was also no real difference between being a head of content and found and being a founder of the business right it's like entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial it's still you feel that level of ownership within your job whatever the job was is am I getting that right I come from a of a family of entrepreneurs my father had his own business my brother has his own he just sold his own business but but still but I never had that

urge to be an entrepreneur myself I very much enjoyed working for for a boss first locally here in the Netherlands for no buuka yord vur later internationally and so I didn't have that you know that that entrepreneurship DNA or anything but it came kind of natural you know we were building this website I I had very strong ideas about how to do the reporting how to do the the news section the the explanatory pages my business partner Jan had very strong ideas about the SEO bit and obviously the website name was his idea and and stuff like that. So, it it was more organic and

yeah, I feel the ownership. Of course, it's my website. When something is wrong, people WhatsApp me or call me up and and not my reporter. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm the one responsible. I take responsibility, but it's also at the same time that makes me, you know, there's no days off. I don't I don't mind it at all, but, you know, it's it is what it is. I was on holidays in in Turkey two weeks ago, but you know, I'm still on my phone a lot. You know, I I don't putting in an out of office reply, you know, like back in a week. That's

not something I feel comfortable with at this point. Maybe later. You never know, but I still feel was very responsible. Yeah, that because that's that's something that I'd love to touch on, Frank, because one of the things you said is that you were you were hoping that this is going to be your last ever thing, right, that you can retire from with with Casino News. I think one of the problems as founders that we have is that it's our baby, right? And so you feel very attached and like you said, you get WhatsApp whenever something's wrong, not the person that wrote it. And that it

also makes you the bottleneck sometimes, right? Because your your standards are way higher than everybody else. Like how do you deal with that as you as you try and grow the business and maybe scale in the future? What are some of the challenges that you see for yourself? Yeah, I I feel that's the responsibility as as the CEO as well to put the right people in place. So I feel comfortable at one point to leave them responsible. I have a a great head of SEO. I have a great I'm obviously still the editor and chief, but I have very senior editor that I feel very

comfortable with. I have a a finance guy like a you know I'm putting the right people in place hopefully and I feel very comfortable with that that but you know there's always that in in the background that it's it's in your head right that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and maybe later maybe later I'll I'll I'll be able to step away from it. But I have no not that urge right now. I I I very much still enjoy what I'm doing. I feel very comfortable with all the responsibilities that are are there. If if it were up to me, I would do this

till I'm I'm 70 or 80. You know, I enjoy the the industry that we're in. I en enjoy the position that we have as Casino News, but also the other websites that we have because we we bought a network two years ago, something like that. So, we have a lot of other websites in the same space as well. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm not looking to retire at all. So yeah, that's not really it's not something that I really have to worry about just yet. Yes. Yes. And that kind of leads me to something else, Frank. What you were saying about the Ka that KSA article

and that kind of making your website boom. Uh I've got two questions from people inside of our I gaming leader mastermind. One is from from Alex Windsor, also affiliate business. He he said, "What kind of content beyond the typical top list had the biggest impact on traffic or convers conversations for you? Did you did you publish something controversial that got push back or wider media attention? Like how did that go? You you of course mentioned you know the first license holders but but how's that gone for you in your business? So we have you know you write we write a lot of content and we

create a lot of other content as well. Sometimes you put hours and hours into something and it barely registers. You know you don't see a spike whatsoever. And then there's other articles that you write like like 40 minutes and it gets thousands of visitors. Sometimes you don't know, you know, it's it's no secret, but people love reading about jackpots. If someone wins a million and we write about it, you know, obviously we get a lot of attention with that, but that's not something that I'm extremely proud of. That's just something that I register. other stuff that we've we've done that's really made for for some

not controversy per se but like when we write something that is not beneficial to one of the license holders or even one of our partners that's always tricky you know because we're an affiliate but affiliation is our business model I don't see ourselves as a as an affiliate I see ourselves as a as a website and and the way we make money is affiliation We're a news website first and that should have a president above anything else. So when there at one point there was like a license folder that was our partner as well. They did something that was not allowed by the regulator. It

was pretty clear in the legislation. It was not like a gray area. They did something that wasn't allowed. They sent an email to their old database form before they were license holders. That was that's simply not allowed. Okay. I feel we need to write about this. You know, I don't say that we're all investigative journalists or reporters, but this is something very clear that we're seeing. If if I'm not reporting on it, that would be weird as well. I feel we give all parties involved obviously the right to comment on it even sometimes see before we publish something. So if we are inaccurate somewhere, they

can respond. But we published it and yeah, it got obviously some push back from the operator. it made for other parties in our industry saying like why are you writing about these bad things these you know it's bad for the for the industry it's bad for our name it's bad for our image and I said you know that could be but I wasn't the one doing something illegal I just reported on it and I felt you know that's something that is our duty as as as a website that's calling themselves casino news you know you you got to bring the news on the casinos if

that's good or if that's bad we have the same thing with these player claims in the Netherlands. Obviously, that's could be problematic for these license holders, but it is still something that's happening in the industry. So, we need to report on it. Even if it's bad for our partners, I'm sorry, but we have to. So, sometimes the stuff that we write that makes for either controversy or people don't like that we're writing about it, but that's just part of the game. If you want to be this platform that we claim to be, then we need to accept that as well. And our partners need to

accept that from us as well. You know, there's some international companies that really don't have experience with that kind of thing. You know, there some of the British operates that are active in the Netherlands as well. They they don't see that from their affiliates that they write bad things or transestions or or or whatnot. So, they push back a lot. Some of them don't push back at all, but some of them I have phone calls with basically every other week because they read something that they don't like. That's part of part of the gin. And obviously we're fortunate that we're kind of big, you know, we

we we bring them a lot of FTDs and whatnot as well. So it's not as easy for them to cancel our account or anything or at least I hope that they feel that our partnership is worth it in the end. But sometimes we step on some toes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, man. I love that, Frank, because the thing is, right, in our industry, especially in the UK, like news is just bought for, right? It's just paid for news. It's actually not news. It's just paid for paid paid for prizes, paid for awards, paid for. Yeah. Right. And so, I love that you're standing up for

that because that's actually what should be happening. And then especially in affiliation, I think there's so much, you know, affiliate news, affiliate sites. um there are some really dark kind of areas on the web when it comes to affiliates, right? How to circumvent, you know, whatever age checks and all that kind of stuff. So, how do you see when you see those kind of things, you know, news websites publishing stuff that's actually not news or or affiliate websites that are super dodgy? How does that make you feel as somebody that is like so on it when it comes to, you know, trust and transparency? Well, I

think I I the fact that we are where we are today with casinnews.nl, that's only possible because a lot of others are not doing that and doing something basically completely different. But I completely understand what they're doing, you know, especially the old school affiliates news was just basically their way of having something new on their website so that Google saw that they were, you know, publishing new content, but they weren't really interested in. We made it at the core of our website. Yeah. And the honesty or the independent reporting I feel that's that's the way to do it. If you're doing it, that should be

the way to do it and that's appreciated by Google but especially by our readers and that gives us the level of access that we have as well. I mean I I don't feel the the regulator or the ministry would be comfortable talking with us on a certain level or give an interview or give quotes on on stuff that's happening if if they see that we're you know doing halfassing our job or or being just giving the positive things and not the negative things. So I feel it's instrumental to the core existence of our website to to have that level of dedication to that type of

reporting and I think it makes sense and I would love for that to be in a lot of other countries as well. So maybe one day we'll we'll get there. Obviously you have other websites that are doing a proper job. You know I I follow Next of course I follow IGP. I follow SBC and whatnot. I still feel that our business model would work in other countries as well. Uh but yeah, we'll we'll we'll see about that if if that's something we're going to explore. But you know, being not for sale, that is I feel that should be the basis for for a lot of

these websites. Even when you're publishing articles with lists, you can at least be upfront what makes for the the list order, right? If someone's paying for you to be on top, you can you can still be honest about it and and still get away with it as long as you're honest. And because readers appreciate it as well that they see that that's yeah, that is something that's not for sale. And same goes for awards. You know, we we're doing our awards in the Netherlands. These awards are not for sale. People cannot pay me or buy a table so they have a bigger chance of winning

the award. That's not a thing because I feel it invalidates the award. Our award, whatever you think of it, is the online casino of the year award. If if you receive that, obviously you people have influence because they can ask people to vote, but they they cannot buy it. So then it's a proper reward, then it has value, otherwise it doesn't in my eyes. I actually got two questions from Finton Costello, who's also on our mastermind. The first one I shared with you yesterday, which was, "How is your new sauna?" The second one, which is actually the serious one, you kind of answered a little

bit already, but I'd love to because it's so different in in the Netherlands, is how did you, you know, how did you navigate that all that difficulty of Dutch regulation, you know, with the over 25 24 age gating and still become like the biggest affiliates in the Netherlands? How did how did like how did you navigate that? Because that is such a difficult thing to do for so many people that don't understand how challenging, you know, that that market is. Yeah. So, first things first, the sauna is it it's nice. Now, I I was I moved to a new place and I wanted a sauna

and I was having a a drink with Finton, I think. Yeah. In Amsterdam, actually, and and he said, "I have a I have a sauna guy." And obviously, he sold his business at one point. So, I said, "And you know, you're proper rich when you have a sauna guy." You know, what is a sauna? Who is a sauna guy? What what even is that? He said, "No, it's it's just a guy I I a business and they build great saunas, so give give me his number and I give him a call." And that same guy built my sauna. And yeah, I haven't used it as

much as I as I want to. I've been busy and the weather is great for saunas, but yeah, it's great. Fitton is actually one of our jurors for online casino of the year as well because he he lives in Amsterdam and he knows the Dutch market as well. So I'm very happy that he's on board as as a jerk. But yeah about the the legislation it's in the Netherlands we have a license model where the regulator they give out licenses to operators not to providers or affiliates or what whatsoever. So at the same time that makes it easy because anyone can start a website anyone

can start an affiliation website there's no licensing process or application or whatnot. At the same time, the operators are very wary who they're working with because obviously if if I make a mistake and I let's say I target 12 year olds with Donald Duck and the Mickey Mouse website and try to get them into like one of these operators, then the regulator will talk to the operator say like whatever this guy is doing, I hold you responsible because it's your license on the line. So they're very of who they're working with. That was one of the reasons why we started the the the KVA which

is the which now is the QM in Europe as well. It's basically a a stamp of approval for life for affiliates who they're working with because I wanted to have this trust that you know we know what we're doing. We know the rules when it comes to marketing and and and and whatnot. So it it was already a tricky start because there's a lot of stuff that we have to adhere by. But the regulator doesn't talk straight to us. They talk to us through the operators. And then last, you know, two years ago by now, they had the Orca degree. Basically, one of the most

important thing for us as as affiliates was you need to prove that 95% of your audience is 24 years of age or older. And that was a massive issue because that is something that all of a sudden all of the affiliates need to adhere by. I started with some others as well, but we started with all our competitors. We we had sessions and said we need to make sure that we're one line. We're, you know, we need to align our thoughts. Obviously, we're competing. We're big competitors. We're targeting the same keywords. We're fighting in when it comes to SEO. Obviously, we're friendly each other. But

on this on this thing, we need to align. We need to make sure that what we're doing is everyone is doing the same. So it's in or out basically and then we need to find a solution for these this thing and we have everyone was working on their own solutions but we shared some information as well because there's no market if all of us disappear and then we feel you know affiliation as a as a marketing channel would disappear maybe that would be not just bad for us because we would lose our love view but it would be bad for the industry. It would be

bad for generalization rate in the Netherlands. it would be bad for the regulator in the end as well. So I felt you know we need to align and we need to share wherever something is possible we need need to share. Everyone had their own technical imple implementations. We we worked very hard on some of the technical stuff but when it came to compliancy and adhering by the laws we needed to do the same and some of the stuff wasn't as black and white. There was room for interpretation. So as long as we all have the same interpretation, we can not force but guide the discussion

that people can have about it. So we talked to the the regulator, we talked to the ministry and obviously you can't sit there with 30 people, right? Because you know it's that's probably going to be annoying for the regulator and and and the ministry. So I did a lot of those talks and Ste Steven Frolic from from the QM the KVA sign of approval did a lot of these talks and I felt we got where we needed to be because we're still around. We still have competitors. He said that we're the biggest affiliate in N we used to be. You have some that are a

bit bigger on on some stuff. I think we're the biggest when it comes to headc counts. I don't know if that's a good thing but no we have I mean yeah that's cost we have like a property and and whatnot you have many casino you have other good affiliates we're still around and we're still fulfilling our role in this chain that makes up the Dutch gambling industry and I feel we're we're in a good place there's been a lot of talk recently especially the last year about extra regulation extra limiting factors but we got both the regulator and the politic politicians lined up with their

focus now on the illegal offering that's huge in the Netherlands as well. So I feel we we guided the conversation to the right place. That's obviously not just on us. That's a lot of people involved there, but we did our part and the focus now is on this huge illegal offering which is you know it's simply unfair because we got to adhere by all the rules. They don't that makes for an uneven playing field. So yeah, we're happy where where we're at and we feel very confident in the Dutch gambling market. Now, it's it's still obviously it's not as as huge potential as it used

to have before legislation hit, but there's still it's still growing. There's still possibilities and yeah, we're happy that we're still fulfilling that role. Love it, Frank. Hey, amazing. Last question for you. When you look back at at all of the things that you've done through your career, as we talked about through through poker news, the the challenges that you faced as you had to refind yourself, right, and and rediscover yourself as a as a parent, but also, you know, as a co-founder, what do you feel is one of the most important skills or behavior traits that you have that have gotten you to where you

are today? something that perhaps is very true to you and you don't see in many others. Thought about this a little bit and I was talking to a a different founder like two months ago who he he founded a online taxi platform website something like you were and lift but like local in the Netherlands. It's a it's a it's a scale up or it's not a startup anymore but it's like it's a massive business. They have a huge company varian and we had a different thoughts on leading by example. You know I still have no issue working obviously no founder has but like working long

days or even vacuuming cleaning here at the office you know the the little stuff I like to lead by example I'll do the best and hopefully the people that work with me see that and feel motivated by that as well. He had different thoughts on it. He said, you know, if I'm vacuum cleaning, that's costing the business €400 an hour. That's not worth it. It would be a waste of my time and people work with me. They are ambitious and they would feel see it as a as a weakness that the CEO is doing the vacuum cleaning. I'm just giving an example. But so we

we we have different views on that. I feel that it's good for a business. Still doing the small stuff. I'm writing articles as well still till this day even though I have other responsibilities. But I enjoy it and I feel it's it's it's helping give the platform credibility and internally see the people that we're working with here like okay he's just you know the same guy and doing the same as we do and hopefully they take get motivation from that and take that as an example. It's a different feel. I feel that's very close to to me. you know, I I don't feel comfortable in

just bossing people around telling them what to do or holding. I mean, people are responsible, but it's not like if they make a mistake that, you know, I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll blame them till the end of time as long as we learn from it and, you know, set up it properly that it can't happen like a mistake can't happen again. I feel that's something that we should strive for and that's what we're doing and I feel it's it's working out for us. Yeah, I think it's great advice, Frank. I mean that's like being operational now and again to actually understand what's happening everywhere is

uh is so important to be able to make great strategic decisions. So um yeah great piece of advice. Thank you very much Frank for for your time and conversation being so open and honest. Really I really really appreciate it man. Thanks for having me. It was great talking to you. Thank you for joining me on the i Gaming Leader podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode head over to iamingleer.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and I hope to see you next week.

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