Arturs Zagurilo: Why High Performers Burn Out (But Don't Quit)

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So I actually joined one of the private banks or maybe even the biggest private bank in Latia at that time and uh I wor there for 6 months. The bank started to have couple of problems with different other organizations and whatnot. So eventually bank got liquidated understood I need to search for a new job and being very frank with you Leo at that time as I said I didn't know anything about the i game first month I was thinking I don't get it I I I was like software B2B turnkey what is that I mean my plan was just to come to wait a bit

learn German that was my idea and then go to somewhere like Switzerland or Germany to continue my career in banking that was my goal right the things started to to go very well for me. I mean I managed to close my first deal in 3 months since I joined. Then a month after I managed to do a second closure and then the business streak started. I started to travel a lot see the world um understood actually what the world I gaming is a fun place to be in. I was fighting with that. I was thinking something is wrong with me. I cannot work just 50%. If

I work, if I'm here, I do my completely 150% best. I spoke once, but one person actually completely not for my team world. And he said, "Listen, this is not a problem. Embrace yourself because this is your strength. I want to be not a boss. I want to be a leader. A leader that people respect and love, but social respect." Welcome to the i Gaming Leader podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host Leo Jutkins and as an ex eye gaming director turned performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like

Intane, 365, Flutter, and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So, with that being said, let's dive in. [Music] Hey everybody, welcome to the i Gaming Leader podcast. Today I am joined by Artus Zagarilo, chief commercial officer at Gamastack, where he leads commercial strategy across 45 countries, manages a really big team. um super excited to to talk to artists today because his uh story is not just about his success, it's about his brutal honesty of that cost to success. He's been super open about his

struggles with imposter syndrome. Maybe you've seen some of the videos that we've done. Um and yeah, that's what we're going to talk about today. So really uh really keen to hear your story. Welcome to the podcast, Artist. >> Thank you so much, Leo. Thanks for having me. very happy to have a chance uh to share my experience a bit today with >> I'm uh I'm super excited to have you here man like one of the big things I remember when like how Nex always calls you out Lex also one of our mastermind members and says oh my god the talent of this guy so young

already in your position so um can we talk a little bit about that first artist like tell us a little bit about who you are age where you're at what you do have That' be a good start, I think. >> Hi, I'm Archers, 31 years old. Uh, born and raised in Regal Latia, a multinational family. It's a it's a mix of everything basically. Mom is Turkish Greek, dad is Latin and Polish. My mother tongue is Russian. I was born in Latia. So, it's a complete mix. Yeah, I'm in I gaming space for the last seven and a half years overall. started my journey at soft

gamings. Uh and back then didn't know nothing about the industry. Actually I got there by complete accident. Before I was in a in a in a banking sector and I was thinking I gonna pursue my career in banking uh direction gonna become a private banker and I was imagining all those you know nice uh nice things from Wolf for Wall Street movie you know um yeah got by accident started to work there um was junior sales I think then after one year I got promoted to middle sales then senior sales then mentor Then I was actually handh hunted by J and I went there and

worked under Martin Collins. Cheers to Martin great guy. Worked there for nine months and then came to Gamma. Came to Gamma and now I'm working last two years as a chief commercial officer and as you mentioned yeah oversee big team 45 countries different business directions turnkey sweep stakes source code I mean you name it. It's super impressive. I just really u it's so cool and I like I love how open you've been about all of it. I wanted to I wanted to start kind of the transition into eye gaming if that's all right. You were in a a super you know stable stable banking career, right? It's

predictable, respected, safe. It's an environment that's um yeah that's that's maybe you know probably in comparison to gaming maybe more boring, I don't know. But what was the moment that you thought or you knew that you had to leave that world behind? You know, do you feel that um was just the opportunity or was there something actually eating at you that you felt, oh, I've got to I've got to leave this area and I've got to got to move elsewhere. >> Actually, it's a good question because the moment I understood I need to leave the banking sector, it was when the bank got liquidated. So

I actually joined one of the biggest private banks or maybe even the biggest private bank in Latvia at that time and I wor there for six months but the bank started to have couple of problems with uh tin sand and different other organizations and whatnot. So eventually bank got liquidated right and I remember actually the last month already uh working in the bun in the street I need to search for a new job right and back then I was working as an assistant and sometime sometimes I had the night shifts as well so I imagine uh I'm searching for a job I have those night

shifts stay there for like 8 to 10 hours uh barely no sleep and then I found a new job at Soft Gaming and I was coming there I was finishing my work at 8:00 a.m. in the bank was going for a quick breakfast and then uh coming to soft gaming's office and working extra eight hours and uh this situation was happening for like several weeks and being very frank with you Leo at that time as I said I didn't know anything about the eye game actually matter of fact first month I was thinking I'm working in evolution you know what what I I I don't

get it I I I was like software B2B Turkey, what is that? I mean, my plan was just to come to wait a bit, you know, maybe to uh learn German. That was my idea. And then go to somewhere like Switzerland or Germany to continue my career in banking in the private banking sector. That was my goal, right? But the things uh the things started to to go very well for me. I mean, I managed to close, I think, my first deal uh in three months since I joined. So, I was like, I got the commission, my incentive. I'm like, okay, so I can buy

me a new shoes for me. That's nice. Maybe go somewhere, you know, for a dinner with my girlfriend. Then a month after I managed to do a second closure, I was like, okay, maybe not shoes already, but something a bit more expensive. Maybe a small trip. Then the third closure and then the business trip started. I started to travel a lot, see the world, um understood actually what the world I gaming is about and uh I gaming industry is actually a very fun place to be in uh compared to banking for example as well because this is a very corporate and strict structure with a

lot of rules and I mean you can't compare the exos from any other industries to the expos that we have right so so basically That's it. So I was I was not planning to stay, right? But then it turned out in a different way. I managed to close some KPIs, make some money, started to travel, make connections. In the end, I got very passionate about the place I'm in. You know, >> I love also the intensity that you're talking about there. Right. So from working in banking and then also like straight away running into an extra shift there. Tell me a little bit more about

that artist. That's I mean that's next level kind of intensity around work. I'm sure that has formed your career ever since as well that that type of mindset, right? Like um but how did that form itself before then? Has it always been like that? Um did that, you know, is that something that kind of work ethic is that something that you you grew up with? Uh did you identify that in childhood? Tell tell us a little bit more about how that when you first noticed that and how you were maybe different from others around you. You know, I can already remember myself in in at

school the way I was actually studying. A lot of kids were normal kids. They were just doing them homework on time, you know, putting 50% of effort, 60% effort, but constantly. The way I was study all the time, it was either everything or nothing. So, I'm always very radical about it. I have like those sprints and then this is the way my mindset works the best and produces the best quality actually. Now I was thinking lately okay maybe he's just a matter of my character. Some people and psychologists say that actually some traumas as well and maybe this maybe this is the case but again

I came to a point in my life where I don't want to change this thing in me. This is actually my essence. This is my essence and matter of fact it proves at least in my life that it works right it works it work it work at school my dad was saying to me since I was 14 that I will not graduate I will not finish the school just because of my attitude and I said to him listen don't worry about this let me chill right now trust me just trust me I'm going to make it work and uh one month before exams I was

all over the place I was studying for 20 hours a day and I managed to close I managed to close all the gaps, pass all the exams, managed to get actually to uh one of the best European universities, DFT University in the Netherlands, right? Just by myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cheers to very nice place by the way. Yeah. And and same principle applies right now in work. Completely the same ethics. So I have a sprint usually I can and I see that uh more mature I get the longer the sprint I can hold right so it could be 5 6 8 weeks of hard dedicated

work and again when I'm saying hard work it doesn't mean working actually 8 10 12 hours 14 hours a day it means highly intense and focused work because you can spend 8 to 10 hours in the office and four hours of them you can just do blah blah blah with your colleagues in the kitchen and having some gossip, right? And we all know those type of people or you can actually um get super focused about something that you do. No distractions, you're in the mood, you're right here and sometimes actually requires you much uh less time, right? But the productivity is super high. So this

is this is my philosophy. this is my principle. >> Then of course it also goes into deciding what you actually work on during those focus sprits, right? Because you could be very busy with low le leverage stuff and it doesn't go anywhere either. So so I love that artist. But um so that all or nothing mindset I I think it's something that uh most of our you know listeners will recognize. I believe most high achievers are probably all or nothing thinkers. What were some of the you've embraced that you said right? you've embraced that. And so what that says to me is that maybe in

the past it's something that you've been fighting. Is that is that true? Like how how has it shown up for you? Has that been has it has have you had difficulties with it? Has it always kind of served you well? What were some of the kind of extremes on on either end with with your all or nothing thinking? >> That's true. I was fighting with that. I was thinking something is wrong with me. Actually I was talking to many people many seniors as well in the industry before and asking how they perceive those things what's their approach and almost everyone was like saying yeah you

need to be consistent you know and uh you need to be always there and present and focus maybe on a slower pace and yada yada and I tried I tried really hard but I understood it doesn't work for me I don't get any kind of satisfaction I cannot work just 50%. So if I work, if I'm here, I do my completely 150% best, right? And then I spoke once with one person actually completely not from my world, very spiritual guy like a mentor, you know, this kind of a type guy from ab um and I spoke with him. We had a random conversation and I

kind of shared this problem that they had and he said, "Listen, this is not a problem. Embrace yourself because this is your strength. This is the way you are. It's a chaos in a way, but you can embrace this cow. You can make it organized. Just turn it to your favor. Right? Knowing knowing your strengths, adjusting the environment around you based on your skills and strong assets. This is the key. So right now I know how I work. I know what's the approach and I can plan in this stream a lot of key um let's say key things I need to achieve during that period

of time and then I give myself a break and doesn't mean Leo that of course I don't do nothing during the break of course I do right but it's just like more monoton you know administrative work where it doesn't require a lot of cognitive uh functions of the brain >> you know what it kind of reminds me of artist is this this um idea of I don't know how long ago where they would punish people that were left-hand writers, you know, and they would force them to write write right-handed. And of course, those people are never going to be very good at right-hand writing because

they were bornless with their left hand, right? And so I think that's kind of the it's a great metaphor of what you're experiencing as well is sometimes we try to fight our you know our nature and it's we're actually better off just embracing it and leaning into it and making it work for us. Right. So so so what changed when you started started embracing kind of your your natural behaviors? What what was the difference from kind of when you were fighting it versus now embracing it and and how how did that affect you know your personal and your professional life >> made a huge difference

to you huge difference because I start to blame myself and I actually I love to blame myself for everything in life as a high achiever you know and a perfectionist I love to blame myself a lot and I start to blame myself and as a consequence I had more mental energy I had more more social battery to move on because I accept myself the way I am. I'm not saying I'm good. I'm not saying I'm bad. This is just the way I am. That's it. Right. Just just deal with this and uh use it. Um so, but this applies more in a in a professional

professional work in terms of uh family and relationship. I think I'm more stable person. Thank God because if I was if I would have the same kind of a mindset uh you know dealing with the people I love the loved ones I think that would be very very hard to have anyone around you. >> Yeah. But maybe your personal experiences some of the things that you told me before you know about tennis matches and how you turn up for your own like you're in your own head. I think that's maybe some of the things where it gets easier over time as well or where you

just learn tricks that you go, okay, I don't have to be an all or nothing thinker here. I can actually just roll with things and um yeah, tell us a little bit more about that. How has that how's that changed over time with how you perhaps talk to yourself or the standards that you hold yourself to? >> I now standards for myself for sure. Um so the second place for me is nothing. >> Best loser. >> Yeah. Yeah. Best loser. Um it implies it everywhere. And again you gave a good example of tennis match like listen for me just saying oh I had a good

game but I lost doesn't give me any kind of satisfaction. But definitely that drives me to continue to try you know and I don't stop to make any kind of attempts. I don't stop yet. I win. So I have a friend actually uh we played with him I think 86 times tennis match. >> There's a very specific number. I lost 85 times I guess and I hope you're going to see this uh this podcast. So cheers to Pasha. >> Thank you Pasha. >> Uh but but I don't stop. I don't stop. I don't stop. Again being frank with you also Leo I understand actually where

this mindset is coming from all or nothing and being high achiever being perfectionist and then we can get to the imposter syndrome. It's a lack of it's a lack of genuine um confidence. Sometimes it's it's feeling that you're not enough. Right. Um I think I told you when we had the interview with you, I mentioned to you something very um delicate in terms of my childhood. Um, I like my parents. I like my mom. But my mom was always telling me that actually you know if you're the best at class in studies then she was showing affection and love and you know and it kind

of it kind of stayed with me thinking that okay I need to prove something myself to my parents to deserve recognition love and many people are that because in the end of the day we're social beings. We are living in societies. We are not somewhere in the temples by ourselves as monks. Um but it also the coin has two sides. In one way it affects me because it drives me all the time. I'm a high achiever. I have results. I I'm always in this fast pace. But on the other hand, the problem is that sometimes you cannot just get a satisfaction from life because doesn't

matter what you're going to have in the end in terms of your professional goals, career, moneywise, family, it's never enough. You're always trying to do something better. You always think that the the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. >> And how's that now? Has that changed over time? Do you feel is that still something that you're um you're experiencing a lot? Is it getting better? Is it something that you want to change? How how do you feel about it? How do you feel about that? Now want to change that and Leo that that was my reason why I joined I gaming

club right that was the main reason imposer syndrome in something superficial. There are different rules actually to this problem that we are discussing right now. So uh I joined the club. I joined this community of fantastic people and uh what actually helps me is to see that I'm not alone, right? There are other people like me and having the same issues and we can support it, help each other. This is fantastic. I think this is very very important because people require people around them. And then I'm also having my uh sessions at psychologist once in a week with the last three years. Uh it's very

hard. It's very hard very hard to be brutally honest and first of all with yourself um and admit something in in life and sometimes go back to your childhood and analyze some traumas or something else that happened. It's hard. But as long as you start this journey and as long as you actually have courage to admit that there's something wrong and I want to have a drastic change in my life, this is already half of the way and another half of the way is execution and I don't expect quick results from myself. I'm having this uh sessions as I said with my psychologist for the

last three years and now I feel I just started the first couple of months I was like yeah okay I got I got it now it's going to it's going to be much better no I was so wrong now I understand this is a journey for life there's always something there's always something to discuss to understand to share the page to reflect and and and try to to to to bring into real life the lessons that you learn actually while having those sessions and also while talking with people from our game club community as well completely the same you know I think I think the

big thing here is that it that we often think there needs to be some sort of outcome right with with coaching or with psychologists or okay when I once I hit this point I'm better you know I'm fixed and it just doesn't work like that right because there is no better or fixed or there's just there's just a journey and I think that's such a different approach from you know someone that's been in sales right you've grown from junior sales to chief commercial officer and have much more progress in front of you um like it's very outcome driven right so how like what have you

found most difficult with kind of identifying the difference between things that are very outcome driven and things that are perhaps more you know journey driven that are more um yeah they call it the infinite game versus the finite game like how how have you managed that over time because that you know most of us take the same mindset to both different scenarios and then feel like a failure every time we don't reach the end outcome with these things that are life right so so so tell me a little bit more about that artist like how have you changed that over time and what were some

of the struggles on that journey me towards uh the changes that you've made. I think I started to change my approach a bit once I joined the club actually because you mentioned this couple of times about the importance actually of the journey I guide right and I like this Japanese philosophy and um also I was reading a book atomic habits which is also very good book in your opinion right um and um while inventing certain habits in my life based on that book. what I understood and what was actually written there is you need to change uh the mindset in a way that there is

not the end goal of let's say for example I want to lose weight right I want to lose 10 kilos that's the end goal so what's going to be next right you're going to start eat unhealthy food again or what there is very much of a certainty after this goal right now if you change and twist your mindset and You say to yourself, "Actually, I want to be a healthy life support." Right? This is already changing your essence. You're changing your DNA, who I am. And this is what I'm trying to do. This is what I'm trying to do. By the way, regarding your diet, same. I'm

I'm not trying to have any kind of final goal where I want to get into into shape, but just consuming healthy food, doing sports, right? And same with work. um who is this person in terms of let's say professional career I want to be I want to be really not a boss I want to be a leader a leader that people respect and love but especially respect and this is how I'm right now trying to prioritize the things that work of course I'm a C level uh we have a lot of KPIs this is my responsibility how we going to achieve but I'm trying to

embrace the journey for myself and for my sales guys lately actually I think a month ago we had couple of bad lucks a streak in terms of the closures it happens in sales especially I gaming right so couple of deals just just we lost them on on a signing phase already of the because of the reasons that we couldn't influence and I saw that um obviously there's a lack of motivation from a sales team in the moment and I'm myself of course I'm also worried that um but what I try to tell them and encourage myself actually is that guys let's stick to the locus

of control you did everything you could right you need to embrace actually that you made a fantastic intro call they were interested they came to the demo call they were interested you got to the contract part you everything that was depending on you, right? Embrace this and the results will come. It's just a number scheme. If you do your work well, sooner or later the maths, the statistics will turn to your favor. >> Yeah, I actually posted about this. It's all about making plus EV decisions, you know. That's the key. >> Yes. Yes. If you're playing one fan in poker, correct me if I'm wrong, Leo. Right. It's

90% of luck and 10% of skill. But if you look into one year, it's 90% already of skill and 10% of luck if you do constantly same decisions again based on the data you have. >> Exactly. Yeah, it's exactly that. It's exactly playing the odds. Um and and I think I mean that's so true, right? because you can't control whether or not somebody's budget gets pulled or I don't know um suddenly the market shifts or you know the company that you're working with that you want to sign a deal with they all of a sudden get their license pulled whatever you know like that it's

just not in your control of course it's going to affect you but focusing on the things inside of your control rather than outside of your control I think super powerful so so thank you for sharing that artist the the big thing that is really hard there though is like you said right you are an all or nothing thinker you you know you play 81 games and uh you know you like you're very you're very outcome driven right you're also very much you're a super hard worker you focus very deeply on sprints you make decisions on what you prioritize now a lot of people people that

work for you even very likely don't work like that, right? And they don't have that same mindset and they approach things differently. Now, how do you deal with that? Because that I think as leaders that's one of the like it's easy to manage people that think like you, do like you, you know, it's difficult to manage people that just have a completely different view on things and a very different approach on things. So, how do you, you know, how do you deal with that? because you maybe your first thought is oh my god this like just got to change and do things like I do

you know >> that's that's a very good question I love it uh indeed my team members are very different they are different they have different superpowers some of them are fantastic in sales some other people are let's say maybe much more organized and structured and analytical right so I think My job as being a good leader is to create environment where I can embrace their skills and they know they have a place where they can grow and uh that they do job in the way they want and if they achieve results why not they can have any kind of style or approach for work. So

I'm I'm a huge hater of micromanagement. I was hating micromanagement when I was uh working in previous companies myself. Thank god didn't happen that often. So I'm not a I'm a true believer that if you hire people and you trust it not just on paper but in practice show that I cannot duplicate myself Leo I cannot even if I'm hard work whatever I cannot I'm only 24 hours a day if I going to micromanage everyone if I'll try to change the way they work according to my view of life nothing will work but if I trust them I give them the credit saying, "Guys, you

can do it the way you want and the way that works best for you according to your skill set. The most important is just the result. If they're going to get there from A to B, I don't care how they got there. So, so, so, so this is the point. I think this is my work. This is my job actually as as being a good leader." >> Has it always been like that? Is it something that you learned over time? >> I I I always trusted people. I always could delegate. And I always understood that uh really everyone is different. I'm not the center of

the universe, right? My philosophy doesn't mean that is good and it could be applied for others people lives. >> Yep. Works for you. Doesn't have to work for anybody else. >> That's completely correct. So >> yeah, love it. Hey uh artist, you moved from junior junior sales to chief commercial officer. Many people will have that same ambition, right, of growing very very quickly. Now you closed some some deals really quickly uh early on in your career where B2B of course has we all know has a very long sales cycle. So that is already very impressive. Um but what I'd like to ask you is what

are some of the maybe behaviors or skills that you've learned or or maybe even the mindset that you've had that has helped you the most with making fast progress in your career? >> Patience. Patience was the key. Um I'll give you the context before joining the I gamic industry as well. I think around two years time when I was a student I was working as a sales assistant uh in the shop. I was selling sports nutrition and as you can imagine doing the sales there very quickly people come it's emotional purchase like hey you need to build the muscles this is the strategy for you. Yeah, you

want to you want to burn the fat al you know very easy and very quick. When I came to B2B, I said, "Oh my goodness, the the sales cycle as you mentioned is super low. It's like depends of course on the product, but three four months. So I learned the patience because I'm very impulsive person actually in my real life that was a huge battle for me. But I understood I want to succeed. If I want to succeed, I need to have this this skill." And actually what also helped me to get this spacious was again to shift a bit just from the outcome and

embrace more journey right maybe unconsciously actually I was already partially doing it still thinking a lot about the outcome but trying to separate the goal into small steps baby steps okay this is stage one stage two stage three you know in the milestones and that was definitely easier for my mind as well to visualize the the success So I think that was like like a key factor um why I managed to um to grow in my career is patience and of course um being good psychologist understanding people obviously I didn't I didn't learn this I didn't study this it's just like you either I think

you have it or not can you actually be emphatic can you understand what other people feel if you can make sure people feel good around you then you can uh definitely improve in your career because we're working with people. So if people trust you, people think that you're a good guy and actually I truly believe this is more important than the other skills like hard skills. And uh when I'm hiring people in my team as well, I make sure first they fit well in the team itself. They're not toxic, they're nice, energetic, and all the rescue. I just I remember in a previous conversation that

we had that uh before you actually joined the mastermind you uh you said ah well I was looking at this content from this guy me and you thought oh my god this all like coaching is all [ __ ] I like I don't believe any of it um and there's so many people that you know post on LinkedIn blah blah blah blah blah and then it's all rubbish so tell me a little bit more about that like how what was for because I I agree with you. You know, the whole there's so much random advice, probably good advice out there, but it's very vanilla. You

know, it's all the same and it's just kind of painted slightly differently. Um, I'm actually reading this book called The Hard Hard Thing About Hard Things and it's it talks about how it's not about frameworks. It's about the decisions that you have to make by yourself when you have to lay off staff, you know, or when you have to deal with something super unexpected. There's no frameworks for that, right? So, so um yeah, I think these vanilla these vanilla things that we see on LinkedIn are sometimes a little bit they sound great, but they don't really do anything. But what was your experience with it? What

why did you kind of feel, oh my god, this coaching is all [ __ ] And um yeah, how did how did you get to to that that experience and that kind of statement that feeling that you had? >> First of all, to give the context, Leo, you need to we need to remind people that got to watch us that partially if half the year leaving Bali in a year and Bali is a perfect place for all those coaches, mental coach, this coach, that coach, she I mean hundreds of coaches everywhere. Um so maybe my biased the opinion was also based on this experience you

know and as you said indeed a lot of people are talking about the same stuff it's very sugarcoated so vanilla successful success blah blah blah blah blah right but you don't see a real result so I was thinking always about having some coach but I was like okay I don't need like a general business coach right or I have psychologist already I need someone in the niche right someone in within in the industry, someone that actually knows how the things that we're discussing can be applied within the business, right? And then I saw you and again being very frank with you, indeed I saw I

I found like it's a crap [ __ ] He's just another coach not in Bali but >> yes, not in Bali, but you're more more than welcome to come. Um but then I started to to look into what type of people you have there in community, right? And I think that was a factor for my decision to apply just to try. Then we went for the interview for the first call and I understood that you're a really lovely person as well. So we have a match in terms of the energy. This is vital. This is important. Doesn't matter how good you are in sort of

coaching. If I don't like you, why should I, you know, be a part of your society society? So yeah, and then I completely changed my mind again when I came need to admit I was a bit selfish. I was thinking ah I mean I going to learn some skills going to grasp some knowledge and this and that solve myself fulfill my gaps and uh what a surprise I had when I understood after a couple of sessions and calls it oh wow like yeah there are problems that maybe are mine and for some people that are solved but also it works other way around some people

are struggling with the issue I solved already a long time ago right and I have some ability to assist and help with my advice or questions or just being there around and talking and sharing my journey. And then when you see that actually people change, it's not only about your journey. When you start to really cherish the journey of other people and you become really good friends, this is fantastic. That's that's the best thing that can happen. And when I saw everyone at the gathering in in London that we had, it's amazing feeling. It's already next level because people get really close to you. You

see them two times a week, right? And you talk about so many sensitive topics and when finally have a chance to sit in within one table and have a drinks and laughs and that was fantastic. >> Yeah, it was great. I loved it as well. It was amazing. Um, hey artist, I want to talk a little bit about the vulnerability that you show up with. Um, so I think gaming is just so full of people that pretend, right? Um, awards are bored, you know, like everybody wears their best watches, you know, to, you know what I mean? Like all of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Fake

Rolex. Uh, you know, news is often advertisement really. It's like it's such uh it's like makeup, you know, and and I think it's like you're really brave for being vulnerable in an industry that actually tries to only show their best side all the time. So, I wanted to ask you, how did that start? like talking about some of your vulnerabilities and some of the things that you struggle with and how do you feel that that has helped you perhaps with as a leader with your team but perhaps also with your business because we often think about things as just business driven we shouldn't talk about

ourselves we should talk about business so how have some of these how how did that start and how's it helped you over time >> love this question Leo um indeed I think it's not only about the eye gaming industry it's about the social medias in general, it's always sugarcoated. We see everyone super successful being there, doing this, buying that, you know, but of course it's usually just masks, masks, max and a lot of pretending. Um, so to give you an answer to this, I need to start with saying that I don't think that being honest with yourself and with your audience is a vulnerability. Actually, I

think this is the biggest strike you can because you allow yourself to be yourself and then you're not in your in your mental cage anymore. You're not a prisoner inside of your own body. Imagine how hard is it to always pretend to be someone that you're not. How much of mental energy do you consume? how unhappy you can be with your own life knowing that you can't be yourself because you're afraid that you won't be accepted. And actually uh for a long time I was pretending in some ways in person life and business but lately couple of years already I understood I need to embrace

myself. I need to love the way I am. And um it helped actually people to to get closer to me. people that want to approach me somehow because they see real me and they see my flaws, my my let's say problems and traumas and it really often resonates with them. So they see human being, you know, instead of just like, oh, it's a just a boss or a SEC level, he's some kind of a monster as they could imagine, right? Super professional. He knows what he's doing. He's not afraid of anything. It's not the way it works, right? So, it definitely helps from the business

perspective. People start to respect you much more. They're willing to do business with you or just even the connections, really genuine connections. And the same applies for the team. I openly state uh what are my problems on LinkedIn? I openly share my sometimes fears or my bad experiences with my teams as well. Of course, given the correct context, right? and it helped them to open up. I'm sure my team is is not afraid to talk to me about the problems they have. And this is actually fantastic. If we've have such environment in the company where they're not afraid to talk to me about anything they

want and if there is even a problem, we can solve it much quicker instead of people hiding pretending everything is good. And in the end then you have very very bad catastrophic risk that maybe sometimes it cannot be solved fixed anyhow. >> Yes. I love it. But there's a scale to this artist, right? So there's a scale to kind of all the way on this side. Perhaps we have people that like pretend to be somebody that they're not. Right? Then maybe you have people that are more authentic and and they um they talk they you know they're happy to admit their failures. But then there's

you right and you talk about this publicly that there's a whole new level right that's actually publicly mean you post about it you share it with your team. like you visibly, you know, share it to the world. And that level of vulnerability, I think, is very that's very brave because that's that's the thing that most people don't do. Even if they don't tell themselves lies, right? Even if they don't pretend to be someone that they're not. Um, like actually sharing it is a whole is a whole different level. So, what made you decide to do that? You know, I had good examples like of yourself, Leo. I

saw a couple of posts where actually you're very vulnerable. You were talking about your experience with your health, you know, the the typical condition you had, the story about the public speaking where you were frozen for eight minutes right on the side. >> I remember it very well. >> I'm sure you do remember better than me. So actually good examples of people that are already succeeded in their careers as well understanding that actually nothing is wrong with me. I'm just a human being and through this message and showing outing myself I can actually help other people to talk more about what they struggle because otherwise

you open LinkedIn and you just see always wins this that successes no I mean don't get me wrong it's good it's good of course you should be positive you should like embrace also your achievements and results is fantastic but when it's very one-sided to firstly I get annoyed and I I I see some people in the feed and sometimes I see the tendency they you know what they're posting and uh sooner or later I want to unfollow and actually I do because the because it's not joining and especially right now in a in a generation of AI where people use AI all the time to

write content everything is getting fake you know be yourself showing you up saying listen okay this is this this is my situation like I struggle with something. This helps to create specific society or community around you and and more you are and if you're together stronger you are actually I truly believe in >> yeah mate I'm actually going to take that a level further. I think that in a industry or an environment that is so fake that is getting more and more fake right because of AI generated content because of pretending because of people wearing masks authenticity actually stands out so it's great right like

everybody should be authentic because it allows you to be authentic and allows you to stand out and I think that is uh I think it's an opportunity rather than a risk and I most people actually see it as a risk and as long as they see it in that risk category in that SWAT, great. Good for us, bad for them, you know. Um, so, so well done, mate. Um, okay. Hey, Artist, last question for you. if you would go back to kind of that junior sales guy that started out and that wanted to wanted to go back to wanted to get to where you are

today. Um what was what would be you know what would be some of the some of the advices that you would give them that you give yourself back then on what perhaps you shouldn't be doing shouldn't have done or what you should keep on doing even more of than you did back then. Okay, I need to reflect a bit on my journey now. I think I would encourage myself to step out of the comfort zone quicker. So, don't get me wrong, the first company award is amazing company, amazing people and learn a lot, tremendously a lot. But I think I could take this decision to

move directing for a new company, new role quicker. I spend a four and a half years. Maybe after two and a half years I could do the step ready but I was always afraid and uh secondly I would already start to do some LinkedIn you know activity already back then uh to build up a certain authority in the industry right so people know you people see you maybe more networking as well because personal brand these days works very well people buy from people people don't buy from companies anymore and in the world of social media Okay. Um, yeah. And I think the rest I would

do the same. Listen, I love my past. I like all my mistakes I did, all my lessons and learnings I had, and I'm happy with my career overall, you know, so can't complain much. >> Great. Hey Art, thank you very much for uh being on the podcast. Really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you. >> Likewise. Thank you, Leo, so much. Thank you. Take care. >> Thank you for joining me on the i Gaming Leader podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iamingleer.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and I hope to see

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