Dan Phillips: 30 Years In iGaming: From Casino Dealer to £2BN CEO

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Sometimes people don't have the confidence to say I don't know and I don't know is powerful right? I would rather someone says no I don't know here's how I'm going to find out or together this is how we'll go and learn rather than quietly going off from googling it or now going on to AI and asking AI to do it for them. That for me is a concern you know if you don't know tell me it's not a problem. That was one of my first experiences really of having to go into a business to look at it strategically and take some hard decisions which involved

you know asking people. There was a big office in Singapore and lots of people. That was one of the first areas that we let go. And then behind the scenes, you know, the owners, I think, were looking and had been looking for an exit for sort of some time. Getting those couple of extra deals done. At the same time as Bfield was leaving, we sort of managed to, I guess, boost a little bit of value to the business whilst cutting the cost base to put it in a position to sell. So, it was really a learning for me. The processes of going through redundancies, making

people redundant, how to do that, understanding the legality of that. I had no idea about employment law in Singapore for example, right? The old cliche is kind of only at the top. I had these shareholders I could speak to and you know ultimately the owner. But there are other environments where you kind of don't have that. I think there there's still a feeling that as the leader of any business that you're kind of infallible, right? People look up to you. That's something which I think people struggle with. You know, I certainly struggle with that. Welcome to the I Gaming Leader podcast. I'm your host Leo

Judkins, founder of I Gaming Leader Mastermind. And on this show, I sit down with some of the most inspirational and forwardthinking leaders in our industry, diving into the real challenges, high stakes decisions, lessons that shape our industry. If you're a VP, director, or an executive in I gaming, this podcast is built for you. Before we dive in, a quick thank you to our sponsor, Sumsub, the full cycle verification platform trusted by top i gaming operators worldwide. Sumsup helps onboard players quickly, stay compliant, and prevent fraud, all without slowing growth. More information in the description. Hey everybody, welcome to the I Gaming Leader podcast. My guest

today started his career as a traininee dealer at Ladb Brogs Casino in London. 30 years later, he he'd run a two billion turnover business at what is now Entain. led Playex's entire UK operation across 10 subsidiaries and 700 people and built a game studio from scratch, licensed in seven jurisdictions in under two years. Dan Phillips here sat at the table during some of the biggest regulatory changes, M&A deals, and market entries this industry has seen. And this is not just a career retrospective. We're going to go into the specific decisions, specific moments, and what they actually meant. Dan, welcome to the show. >> Thanks, Leah. That

was some intro. um makes me feel very old, but also I should point out all those things you listed. There was a lot of people around me which I'm sure we'll get into and and it was a big old team effort on lots of those things. Just happy to have been through some of those changes. It's it's a long way from dealing cards in a basement and so for sure. >> We were just talking about it off camera 41 right you said. So just spring chicken you're all good >> or you know tough paper round as as some some might say. >> I'd like to

start at that actually the casino floor. It's a while back, but most people at your level that came up through specific uh finance or tech. What did um dealing cards in London actually teach you about this industry and things perhaps that you couldn't have learned anywhere else? >> Yeah, I mean I would like to say there's been a grand plan over the last 30 years, but I'll be lying. I um did a business diplomas and went through the educational route that I thought I should go through and actually realized quite early academic route really wasn't for me. I was quite a late developer kind of

academically and I had family connections in casinos. So actually my dad came through the casino room. He was working in London in in the in the swing 60s you know. He said to me why do you go on this training course with Lab Brooks cuz I know the guy who's running it. And I sat in a room then for 8 weeks in Rainer's Lane. It was completely kind of new to me from that perspective. But it obviously taught me a lot just in terms of people interaction in terms of mentality of a player, the good, the bad, you know, and what works and kind of

what doesn't work. Then when I moved online and I I joined Eurab in their woking offices and then I helped them launch their first online casino and I came out of dealing cars on a Friday night into a boardroom on Monday morning for the first time which was a shock to my system and a shock to their system I think as well and it was a case of you know they said to me what should we expect and I was like well this is what I think we should expect from my experience but online was all new right so we launched and it did very

well very quickly and that quickly spiraled you're into coral into gala and as you said at the outset everything which is now the intake group so great great days to learn and I've taken those learnings with that customer mentality always tried to be consumer first right what would the consumer thing and trying to make the experience as close to reality as possible I think that's why the success of live dealer has been what it has been over a number of years so yeah really I think the ultimate point is really that customer first perspective right >> yeah I think that's I think that's true for

almost everybody that comes from you know any sort of customer support area, dealer, whatever that might be. Is is that you think customer first instead of perhaps KPI first or business first? So tell me a little bit more about that move all the way up to digital gaming director at Gala Cororal. Dan, like what were some of the more pivotal moments that happened in your career to make that trajectory? >> I think you know for quite a while I was the, you know, the online gaming guy, right? And it was a big big retail business. So Eurobet had the which was a telephone betting business

originally and they put up a web page right to show odds. So then telephone bing that obviously developed it then into the online platforms and then coral came in. So it was it was really you know as I say learning as we went learning by a lot of mistakes in terms of the types of products that we were putting out there how we were dealing with customers. You know, there was a point where, you know, the customer service team which understood the mechanics of taking a bet and and the mechanics of the process were then having to deal with customers coming in with these new

online problems and a lot of that in the early days was forgotten passwords and you know the usual sort of stuff now which is pretty much automated but then it wasn't it was quite manual but you know I can remember thinking oh I need to step up here or step on because calls were getting put through to me where someone was you know in the early days saying oh I think I might have a problem of, you know, I'm gambling too much. And we're talking about the early 2000s and the work the self-exclusion mechanics that we have today and the timeouts and the alerts and

maximum spends and and so on and so on. And I'm thinking, I'm not qualified for this, right? To talk to people about a potential problem. So then we invested in specific teams and people and we partnered up with Gam Care and Gamtop and those early kind of adopters of that and realized that we had to build out the team not just from the expertise of that but in terms of a full operation and then we started spreading out and then we took on new partners in different parts mainly a European focused business in in Greece and Scandinavia and other parts of the world and Italy

for sure. So making sure that we were localized enough to be able to deal with individual issues that were coming through or things common to that area and that was and that was one part of it and then the next part of it was actually you talked about KPIs earlier and it was customer first it was yes it was but then we were thinking well commercially you know we're outsourcing pretty much our gaming platforms to a number of to a number of providers. So then we were actually one of the first operators to bring in our own development studios and then to run those in

parallel. So that gave us the ability to to work the partners harder because we had our internal product and that was where I guess my commercial brain kind of kicked in somewhat thinking about how we can optimize that and best ways to get the best out of partners and how you deal with them versus how you deal with internal and so on and so on. It was that real kind of learning curve and then you know looking at others coming along and you know we were one of the first partners then I can't remember exactly when it was 2004 five we did one of the

first deals with evolution for their live data product and it was their version one effectively and we were learning for them and they were learning from us and then back in the days of CH which we'll talk about later I think and then boss media and cryptologic and you know some of those guys and then you know as I say the likes of evolution came along and then play came along well later and so on and so forth. So it's kind of seeing that seeing that evolution but I tried to keep myself and even to this day you know a breast of what's coming along

cuz when we when I joined it was it was sports and then casino tagged in and then it was poker came along and then bingo came along and then the rise of mobile seemed to be three or four five iterations before it finally hit with you know with Mr. the jobs launching the iPhone, right? And I still remember the arguments back and forth about should we focus on BlackBerry over. >> I remember those separate wallets and all sorts. Oh my god. >> You know, even during my time at Playtech, there were debates early on, should we build mobile first or should we build desktop first? And

you just think, oh, that's just a ridiculous thing to say now. Um, but back then, who knew, right? And that's what this industry throws at us. And then obviously the regulatory pieces we went through. We were working, we had a poker business which then got hit by the US shutdown pre- US regulations, the UI, GA. That shutdown we went through with the smoking ban in the UK which impacted retail with the two pound fobty limits and through to where we are today with the enhanced responsible gaming and then the increase in taxation which has again changed everyone's view certainly you know in the UK about

about how to run a a commercially viable business I guess. >> Yeah. And that's the thing isn't it like that we all know it from gaming. just keeps you on your toes. There's always a curveball coming. But in that whole trajectory, Dan, as well, like you've gone through some really big kind of movements in your career as you progress. That comes like every single person I talk to, that comes with some sort of insecurity as well. I suppose you haven't figured out the next level. You're not sure, but you're stepping up and you're not quite sure how to do it yet. How how did you

deal with those kind of um those kind of moments? Was that more of a I'm just going to figure it out, work harder. Was it more of I'm going to educate myself? How did you deal with those next levels every time? >> I mean, I would say maybe this the the arrogance of youth or the kind of invincibility of youth perhaps is maybe a better phrase. It didn't even cross my mind thinking, oh, this poker's just arrived. I know I know I play poker with my mates on a Friday night. So, we're not poker, right? And we did. And again, you make mistakes and then

and then you learn, but it seems to be a bit quicker. Maybe as you're longer, things kind of sink in sink in kind of quicker. But when it came to some of those things I mentioned earlier like a sensitive call from a customer you know the alarm bells in the back of head guard think I can't wing this this I can't that's not fair on anybody and you know including myself and that's when I thought okay now I think I need to understand what I'm good at and but then actually identify I don't know this right and whether that was in that customer service area

or whether it was in more detailed you know compliance you know regulatory side of things you know some of those big documents come through and you know your heart sinks when you start reading them because ever been the most academic but reading the some of those documents this is heavy here and I really want to make sure that I understand the nuance of this so then bringing in people and talking to people that maybe that is more of their area and having helping them help me to disseminate to make sure I can make the right decisions based on the information I can't remember whatever that

tipping point was or what age I was at but there was definitely a point where I thought okay now I need to focus and take a bigger view perhaps and then delegate more, right? Which I'm sure you hear lots of having the confidence to delegate. And that's that's come back and bit me a couple of times where you maybe overdelegate or you you put your trust in people who may be winging it themselves, right? And you don't necessarily realize that until it's too late. And sometimes people don't have the confidence to say, "I don't know." And I don't know is powerful, right? I would rather

someone says, "No, I don't know, but here's how I'm going to find out or together this is how we'll go and learn." rather than oh you know they quietly going going off from googling it or back in the day or now going on to AI and asking AI to do it for them that for me is a concern you even to this day when I'm working with people is you know if you don't know tell me it's not a problem but but the other side is that's one of the hardest pieces I think there's two areas there one is that people sometimes feel that maybe

they're afraid or something to say I don't know so first part of the question is have you found a way for people to feel comfortable enough to say it And second part of the question is um how do you actually figure out if somebody's winging it and not telling you that they don't know? >> Have I found out a way to spot that? Probably not not as well as I would like. I think I'm, you know, my view on people generally is open-minded and I want to think the best of people, right? Um I'm not, you know, for example, I'm not, you know, a technologist

per se, but enough time has passed for me to understand broadly how long things should take and broadly how much things should cost. That's my if you like and gives me something in the pit of my stomach that says this needs to be challenged. I've done as well is if I'm not sure about something I've often said to people okay that's great maybe we should go and get a second opinion. Um then you can see people's reaction to that and I'll ask people you know up front you know and I never do that in a public forum but you know quietly you know offline over

a coffee you know look this is between me and you if you're not sure you know that's fine work it out. Um I have been caught out um you know and it's and it's happened relatively recently. inevitably there's so many moving parts to this business and this industry that things get identified relatively quickly thankfully on occasion where it doesn't then you have that backup plan right and a backup plan is for my consulting period which I'm doing now is that I have a network right and when a project comes over my desk and it's something that's not my area of expertise I go to my

network and I know the guys I can go to I guess the challenge now is when that network ages and new technologies come along and new processes is finding the next generation of people and that's part of what I'm exploring now and reaching out to and it's why I still go to trade shows and do things like this is because you know I want to find that those next people because the next generation you know are the future cliche as that may sound right so it's identifying that and then hopefully helping them with some of the other parts of running a business or managing people

on that kind of softer side of things some people may say I'm a little bit impatient perhaps sometimes and I've been challenged with that and I like to get to the point but I would rather someone tell me what's up and I hate I hate surprises. I think it's it's like time is valuable. So getting to the point and being impatient I think is exactly the right thing to do because very often we uh tend to dance around something for way longer than necessary just because of politics or whatever it is you know and it's just a waste of time. We were talking about 2009. You

became CEO of Chartwell's games business in 2009. Days into the role, uh, Bet Fair, your biggest customer, gave notice. Business was already struggling. Can you take me back to that moment? You've just stepped into that CEO chair and the biggest customer walks. What did that feel like? And what did you do in that first week? >> Well, it wasn't great, that's for sure. Um I um I'd been at what was go of coral for 8 years and this opportunity came along. So that had been B2C and before that had been the casino and the B2B side was rising and I was interested in sort of

looking at it from that perspective as well and timings worked out. T would have been you know were a partner of of God coral. So there was a natural kind of move into that. I knew actually at that stage the business was it got over its peak yeah if you like that was in slight decline. That was at the same time that Playch and others were you know rising up. So I actually joined the business initially in a different capacity for a couple of months and then moved into the games side of things which was effectively running their European business there. Canadian business but running

their kind of European operations and then yeah you know you get a phone call kind of a few days into that role coming have a chat and decided to go in a different direction with a different partner. So it was really first of all to speak with them to understand the reasons, understand what we could do and what we couldn't do. We took a view and I took a view that we could get upset about it. We could potentially focus on other partners that would be difficult. But the idea was that we wanted to, you know, work with them for as long as possible and

to help them with their transition because they've been good partners for because ultimately I think reputation is important and that's one of the things that I stand by. So, you know, at that point, um, we went back to the owners of the business and the shareholders. It was a public company, Chartwell. We obviously had to announce it because it's a public company. One of the things I did pre-coming in was I did have two sort of large deals lined up, so we focused on those to get those through the business as quickly as possible. So, that's where I took my focus is getting those deals

done, which we did do, which helped soften the blow a little bit. But actually one of the the biggest things actually coming in I already knew we need to look at the cost base because there was there was you know quite a heavy cost base and how we could optimize that. That was one of my first experiences really of having to go into a business to look at it strategically and take some hard decisions which which involved you know cutting people had um they had a call center in Singapore for example because they had previously had an Asian business which had closed down but that

was still there supporting the global business. there was a big office in Singapore and lots of people and it's not the cheapest part of the world, you know, to operate. So that was one of the first areas that we let go and then behind the scenes, you know, the owners, you know, I think were looking and had been looking for an exit for sort of some time. So getting those couple of extra deals done at the same time as Bfield was leaving, we sort of managed to, I guess, boost a little bit of value to the business whilst cutting the cost base to put it

in a position to sell. The business ultimately sold a couple of years later to I think it was a Maya gaming at the time now rolled into other businesses as the industry has has kind of evolved. So it was really you know a learning for me like a prioritizing you know what we needed to do to manage I think bet fair as professionally as we could and should get those deals done but also look at that cost base and I think learning the processes of going through redundancies making people redundant how to do that understanding the legality of that I had no idea about employment

law in Singapore for example right and then doing that as professionally as possible and you know to So my role kind of came to a conclusion when all of that concluded which was a couple of years later. So it was quite a lot in a couple of years and I thought actually that point I've taken that as far as I could in terms of what it needed to be done and then it's now moving into something else which maybe I didn't want to be part of at that time. So then like strategically sound decision making and looking back you know that's that's the emotions are

probably kind of out of it but I' I'd love to hear how that was on the minute you heard it because you're just in that chair you know like it's not your rational I don't know does your rational brain kick in at that moment or are you >> Well I think I definitely had a moment can't remember how long the moment was it could have been minutes it could have been days I can't remember now but it felt there was definitely a moment where you get that sinking sinking in your stomach I've got to ring up the chairman and the board and tell them this

news and my first thought was oh it's obviously me and they obviously don't rate me right you know I knew the bare guys and I'd worked with them we did a couple of projects together in my previous roles and they were very nice about it almost made it worse it was all very friendly and um so you know it it definitely with that you know feeling of well maybe it's me maybe I'm not good enough and that you know the kind of imposter syndrome I think actually the chart management senior management you know were very supportive of that and because I'd only been in that

role for a short period of time. I think they understood the reasons why that that had happened and actually that was then some introspective around Chart I think had spread themselves too thinly which was part of the reason that Bair made that decision I think because they were a casino business and then they branched off into poker and into bingo and tried to do too many things and I'm sure for all the right reasons at the time those decisions were made but ultimately that that I think was part of the challenge but once I kind of got over that I thought no actually we can

we need to now make the best of it and then clearly moving into that those areas of redundancies and this is where it's not on a spreadsheet. You know, I've worked with some management and owners and founders who just see numbers, right? They just see, well, you know, our salary bases 50, 60, 70% of our revenue, but they don't necessarily know their names and faces behind that. And maybe they've seen the roles that I've been in and people like me as that proxy that that we do that. But, you know, I was often the the respectable face or the the one that could pass the

message on hopefully with a bit of, you know, feeling and understanding. And it's not everyone's it's not everyone's thing, right? You have to be clear. You have to be focused and listen and let people have their say. Let you know some people explode and some people go very quiet and some people shed a tear and you have to let them do that and then go through a process. But, you know, kind of keep it respectful. I've always find that really intriguing the the tension between those two things of on the one hand of the utter shock you have yourself right like an event like that

happening where you go all right our biggest clients just cancelled and I know that there were already costheavy and this is going to you know be a massive issue as but on the on the other side of that is you needing to be like strategically secure you know you're you're the face you're the CEO right? You're the face of the business. You've now got to communicate to staff. You've got to have a clear vision. Those are two opposite sides that I think are extremely difficult to manage and things that often don't, well, they don't get spoken about enough, I don't think, because yeah, you carry

all of that along, right? You carry all of it along and you need, you know, you need to do both things. >> Yeah. No, for sure. And again, the old cliche is kind of lonely. It's kind of lonely at the top, right? Luckily in that I had these shareholders I could speak to and you know ultimately the owner. But there are other environments where you kind of don't have that and that's why I'm still very friendly and I have a peer group and I have little WhatsApp groups with people I work with over the years. We can share some banter. We meet up the occasional

drink. It's a safe environment where you can ask questions. Right. >> Yeah. >> I think there there is still a a feeling that as the leader of any business that you're kind of infallible, right? And you know people look up to you and that's something which I think people struggle with. You know I certainly struggle with that. >> Yeah. I think we all do. Yeah. And it's something that I don't know well it doesn't get advertised obviously. You know you're not going to go to ICE and talk about got this failing business and I need to stand there and be super confident about where we're

going in the next three years. It just nobody talks about that. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Okay. I want to talk a little bit about Playtech if that's all right. So you ran Playtech UK from 2012 to 2018, 10 subsidiaries, 700 people. >> Yeah. So that kind of built up over time. I actually joined them to to run the bingo business because they had bought virtue fusion a couple of years before I joined and the management or the previous management had moved on and I had my bingo experience from the gala days. So I came in to manage that part of the business which was very

successful and continues to be and then with all the shared UK offices and actually play at that point had been through a big kind of acquisition tranch of deals. I think five or six had happened over a couple of years. So I became kind of a focal point. Each of the companies had their own management teams and I took some kind of oversight which was great because I got to learn about different parts of the business because they bought a game aggregation business in what was GTS and they bought ash gaming and they bought other businesses and then they started buying businesses which were new

to me in terms of responsible gaming type entities. They bought your I think the guy strategy was was part of that. I'm not sure I'm not sure if you were around there then. I had just left so we were uh yeah the whole poker market had collapsed so they got a bit of a steal there >> although you guys were out in jib so it didn't really fall under my but there was an overlap so play gets lots of he's in the headlines for lots of reasons and I'm not going to get into those but I had some very good years there and met some

amazing people and some very good people there for sure >> one of the things that you said is that so the real question in that period is who when and how to hire the right mix of people cultures and experience in a truly global business true in any global business. What did you get wrong before that that helped you understand that that was the key thing to do especially in a global business? Because I think we like we kind of think about ourselves and how we work and we want to implement a blueprint that is just copies of us and then we realize all right

that's obviously not going to work in these different cultures. So what were maybe some of the walls that you ran into where you thought oh my god I need to have a better mix here or I need to hire better in this kind of scenario this kind of environment. So in I mean a pay techch and other companies you know I came into environment where I there were already teams in place. So I kind of inherited those teams and like any new manager coming in, you're looking at them but they're looking at you as well, right? Um so you feel that spotlight of being reviewed, judged

perhaps. So my view has always been to try and look and listen first, right? So to understand I'm I am a general believer in the people you have are the people you need, right? It's just making sure you get the best out of them because to go through a hiring firing cycle is no good for anybody, right? It's just inconsistent. It creates distrust and it doesn't work in any industry, I think, in any environment. So, you know, coming into play was I've been in this very successful kind of gala coral business, then had that couple of years at Chartwell, which was up and down. Again, coming

in thinking, wow, you am I good enough for this, right? You know, these guys are winners and winners and winners, right? Um, that was one of the first things they said to me, we are winners, right? And that was kind of stuck in my head. So I'm thinking, well [ __ ] have I got anything I can help these guys with? So you know, you come in and then, you know, you look and you listen and then over time you get to know people and you get to know their strengths or weaknesses. That was what I tried to do and still try to do is

understand each person's strengths or weaknesses. Um looking at where we need to grow looking at some of those experiences that I had with child just to say, well, we were spreading ourselves too thin here and that ultimately caused a problem. So a decision made 3 four years ago didn't kick in until 4 years later. So we definitely identified that you know um especially there because I think yeah I don't know what it springs to mind but I think you know like the iPad had just become the next big hot Christmas gift right and we had a mobile version of bingo but it wasn't quite optimized

and there was a big decision about can we could we can we should we get it ready for December so when everyone opens up their Christmas presents that they can play bingo in landscape rather than portrait and it was a case okay we're going to have to stop doing XY Z projects to be able to do that then getting pressure from some of the big customers because they want to do this do this that and the other. So it was putting all of that into the mix and looking at the people and thinking right do we have the right people to understand what what we

need to do if we decide that we want to shift a strategy from A to B or X to Y at short notice can they deal with that how do they cope with that because they may have been on this trajectory for weeks and months or maybe years now we're going to say pause that and go and do that but here's the reasons why I'm not sending you blind into it so that was a challenge so I learned a lot about people from that perspective some people didn't like the way that we were approaching it or I was approaching it and they raised their concerns

and I certainly listened and I adapted as well. Some people decided it wasn't for them and I was like okay it's not for you. If you want to move on then you know I support you good luck you know write you a nice reference and you know good luck and again that definitely happened. there were a few people that left in senior roles and um you know I was still a good good contact with them and you know they're part of my network today and then going through that process about then you know rehiring I guess at that time as well we'd seen as I

mention the growth in compliance and responsible gaming and it you know it stopped being the kind of you know internal like half smile of business limitation department haha very quickly became no business very important and then became a big part of that. So that was all new to us as well to them as well. So that putting those processes in place but I think the question around identifying people's strengths or weaknesses I think it came out of those challenges right and asking them to change. There was some technological processes that had been in place for a long time which needed to evolve but we switched

from flash development into HTML 5 development. So we said right not building anything more in flash right even though it was still a thing or would be a thing for a couple more years right we then decided to build everything in HTML 5 which had initial push backs because it wasn't maybe quite as slick for older devices in hindsight it would have a mistake not to do that now technologies moved on 10 times since then so those were some of those decisions that not everyone kind of came on board with you know it was like are you on the bus or not on the bus

so you know if you for me it's a case that give everyone the opportunity to have their say, right? You know, you debate, you discuss, you take it all on board and then between a group, whether it's a small group, never just one, never just me, but you know, with your trusted peers and and managers and, you know, experts, you make the decision and once the decision is made, I expect everyone to support that decision. I don't want anyone then dragging their heels. That's a case of when you have that discussion, you say, "Well, maybe this is not for you." if you're on board or

you're not on board. >> And through all those hiring decisions, Dan, we also see people that surprise us. Like, let's talk about the positive ones, not the negative ones. But we have people that surprise us that really accelerate in their careers, really step up. They do things that maybe we hadn't even seen in them before when we when we started hiring them. And who's maybe someone or who you know can you can you talk about someone that has really surprised you perhaps what you had missed initially or what you would what kind of happened where you saw oh my god this this person is really

accelerating in their career. >> I think you know I looked for people going through a similar trajectory maybe I went through and a lot of that was youth related right. So you people coming in in their first job out of uni, second job maybe kind of early mid20s, they're living the dream, right? Single, no kids, and maybe earning decent salaries for the first time. And then seeing how serious they are and how focused they are on deadlines or are they coming in a little bit worse for wear, maybe once or twice a week or too often perhaps. and maybe initially not writing those people off

but putting them in a position of okay talented but can I rely on them through to actually then later on thinking can I help them right can I advise them somewhat you know within the realms of keeping it professional of course and I don't know what goes on behind people's closed doors and I guess no one does right at play we actually brought in coaching teams within the HR structure and mentoring teams and I think that was initially looked down upon a little bit but I think people ultimately saw the value because it was kind of anti to the culture originally. But again, I don't

necessarily want to name people directly, but there was definitely people that I saw over a period of time almost had the realization that I had that oh actually I've got an opportunity here that I can put my mark on something whether it was a product or a new partner or a new market entry or whatever it may be and maybe kind of step up. And that might be as they got a little bit older or maybe they then got a serious partner or they had their first child or there was something that triggered in the head thinking okay I need to take this seriously now

and there were some people that I never saw that in and they've subsequently got on to be senior sea levels at other companies and it's just a case of people develop at different times right and maybe I didn't give them the kick that they needed right maybe I still need a kick today right we all need a kick right so I think it was part of me initially thinking I need you to deliver XY Y and Zed and that's the most important thing to me and maybe that's how they reacted to me as well. Right? So I kind of got what I asked for to

the point where I gave them maybe a bit more of a remmit and said look I don't know the best way to do this you know you come back and tell me right you know you give me the options rather than me telling you this is what we need or if you think we're wrong come up with a reason to do it. So there were a number of people that rose to that challenge. A number that didn't. A number five years later, a number of people that I bumped into at events, you know, who I've said openly, wow, you know, you've really surprised me. And

people have said, well, right, people have said to me, I didn't think you were going to develop into a manager. And I initially my back went up. Oh, okay. That's a bit rude. But then, but then you realize actually that's obviously how I was presenting myself, you know, at that time. Never take anything too personally. >> What do you think that is then, by the way? like what what is the fuel that helps people change that trajectory if you will? You know, we see something in someone and we think oh well going to be what a mediocre and then all of a sudden they're this

super high talented person that's had a rocket ship of a career. Do you think that that's uh you mentioned a few things. Is that stuff that happens privately? Is that freedom that they get in their career? A project that they can put their stamp on? Is that the right manager? It's not a single thing. But what do you think it is? It's never a single golden bullet, right? But what I mean for me and I've se and it's happened to me and maybe other people see it as well is it's when you're at a peer level with someone that you do a similar role and

you know similar salary assumingly and then the person next to you suddenly starts moving up quicker and quicker and quicker, right? Whatever reason that may be, maybe they're more engaged, maybe they're, you know, got some great ideas, you know, whatever it is. And it's then introspective looking at yourself and thinking, "Oh, why is that not me?" Now, you can go two ways. Some people might take offense by it and think there's some conspiracy against them or there's something else going on and maybe thinking, okay, what is that person doing that I'm not? And then that being that trigger to say, okay, well, maybe I need

to learn some new stuff here, right? Because maybe I'm coasting and I'm doing the things that are comfortable. I'm not getting involved with the projects which are difficult, which are challenging, which involve a bit more effort. That might mean I need to stay at my desk just a little bit longer. And don't get me wrong, work life balance is hugely important. I'm a big advocate for that. But just making sure that you are putting yourself out there and I think that can often be the trigger for some people other people it pushes them the other way. Um but you know as much as it's not

competitive it obviously is competitive if that makes sense. You talked about a framework before this kind of 50 25 framework. I don't even know if you call it a framework, but you've mentioned it and I've put it into a framework, but you've managed hundreds of people across your career. And that framework was kind of you were talking about 50% committed, 25% ambivalent, 25% focused on themselves. When did you first realize that that is kind of a true statistic, if you will, and how did that change how you lead? Well, first of all, there's no science behind that. But to be a true statistic, I mean, originally

I thought about it as a third the third, but I found that was a bit too harsh. You know, for me, it was to the point where I realized I can talk myself blue in the face trying to explain that some people just won't be on board. It just for whatever reason, they don't agree. And that's fine. So, whenever it might be, it could be as something as simple as, you know, a new HR policy, right? And there'll always be potentially people that that just don't disagree. And it's the same in anything. It's the same in politics. It's the same in any kind of environment. I

always think people if you look at someone individually, they're super smart. Collectively, they're not so smart. And you can look at social media for that, right? People look at social media and they read and the algorithms show them what they want to read and therefore they believe it. And that's not dissimilar in business, I think. So, I think if I can get 50% plus or even if you include 75% for the people that kind of just go with the flow, um I think that's a pretty good percentage of people kind of on that journey with you. And then the other 25% that aren't, look, as

long as they're doing their jobs and you know are not being disruptive for the sake of it, then okay. But I think trying to convince yourself that you'll get 100% of people on board 100% of the time, I think is naive. And I think you need to be able to admit that as yourself, you know, let alone, you know, to the business. >> Yeah, makes sense. Um, I want to talk a little bit about Planetic, your move from CEO to to Ned. You've made a deliberate move there and we're talking about it as, you know, for your own personal development or you framed it as

development. So, what does that look like in practice? What are some of the things that perhaps you're able to do now that you weren't able to do before and like how's that helped you? Yeah, look it's been a you know a a long-held focus of mine to move into more of a strategic roles to use my experience to to help others. I mean you know when I joined planetic 3 years ago now I think it was the business was very young there was a great idea there was passion and a lot was done very very quickly to get that live and that's now moving on

to its next stage and I think maybe having done that process before and managed lots and lots of people it needed more kind of dayto-day focus I think bringing in slightly younger management team I think is the right thing so that's allowed me to move into non-exec roles and I'm doing that for a number of companies Now some of that is official branded non-exec some is less official in terms of just advisory right just being on the end of a phone to help people. I've just made my first investment into a startup which is exciting and I'm passionate more passionate about that I think than

I've ever been about anything again maybe when it show money on the line is a bit different you know huge it's but it's interesting maybe becomes something and maybe it doesn't I'm I'm confident it will so I can offer different support to those guys and to say look if you got an idea ask me and maybe I came across something similar before and even if I didn't I've got a view so I I'm at that stage where I can do that because maybe I can afford to, but my kids are both at uni and I've got a little bit more time rather than dealing with

day-to-day operational challenges and HR issues and so on and so forth. >> Do you think it's also a consequence of just getting older and feeling that you don't want to deal with that anymore? I'd certainly feel like that >> 100%. I mean, yeah. Yeah. And look, I'm not going to sugar that at all. I want to do things now that I find interesting, right? Because life's too short, right? Um, and again, I'm at a different stage to other people in their careers, and they may think I'm talking rubbish because it's not where they're at. Everyone does what's right for them for the right reasons at

that moment. I might look back in a couple years time, oh, maybe it wasn't the right thing to do, but right now it feels like the right thing for me and I'm enjoying it. There's new things coming across my desk all the time and sometimes I jump on them and sometimes I say thanks but no thanks is not for me, right? Um, and I think that ability to say no is really powerful as well, right? Just to say no, it's not for me. In fact, the number of commercial deals that I've done by saying no 10 times until until it becomes yes and it becomes

yes because things have developed. But if it's not right, don't waste my time and I won't waste your time is my sort of general approach. You know, >> I love it. Dan, great stuff. Final question. You're uh you're 30 years in now. If you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice at those tables in 1996, what would it be? Hindsight is a great thing and some of the things that this industry has done have been so straightforward and you know uh clear now with I guess the rise in mobile and I just think I you know I've always said I know we

spoke about about Beter earlier but I mean what a great simple idea Ber was back in the day right you know a betting exchange between that and and that's why some people are you know innovators and creative and I've never seen myself as that you know I'm I'm more of an operator at heart right so to have a bit more of a visionary view. I guess lots of people might say that I thoroughly enjoyed my time dealing cards. I spun the rullet and I worked on the craps table as well. So, you know, did all of that. I think it would be to be more

aware earlier on of my limitations, you know, and maybe that's just an age thing as well, but probably wouldn't have changed anything dramatically. Maybe a few things I might have done a bit sooner or maybe left a little bit longer. But yeah, I just think really understanding that I'm not a creative person has helped me greatly ultimately. whether it be coming up with a great new game design. Um, you know, I'm I'm certainly personal. I think I can look at a new game and I can offer a view on maybe how to improve it, but I wouldn't have come up with the idea, you know, in

that first place. And and that's making sure you got the right mix of people around you, right? Because people, everyone has different skills and I think that understanding is probably something that I would have focused on a bit a little bit earlier perhaps. >> Love it. What a great message to finish on. Bank on your strengths and back yourself for it. I love it. Dam, thank you so much for uh for the interview today. >> No, thanks Leah. Thanks for uh thanks for spending some time with me. >> Thank you for listening to the i Gaming Leader podcast. If you're a VP, a director, founder

or an executive and I gaming making the biggest decisions alone, that's exactly what I've built I Gaming Leader Mastermind for. Small inner circles of vetted senior executives, weekly hot seats, and accountability from people who understand the effects of the decisions that you need to make. Find out more and apply at i gamingleer.com. And a final thanks to our sponsor, Sumsup, the full cycle verification platform for i gaming operators. Player onboarding, AML, fraudrevention, all in one place. More at sumsup.com/gambling. See you next week.

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